Feeding Jack-Hill's j/d-other food options?

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

Ewww. It's basically corn, by products (the ONLY meat), peanut hulls, soybean "mill run", with a few healthy supplements like Glucosamine and L carnitine. I think that you can probably get the same benefits from a better food- without the downside of feeding those crappy ingredients.

Sigh... I really wish people would get over the "corn is evil, and by-products aren't nutritious" balogney... and I really wish Hills would learn to put more meat in their foods... Honestly, the food kicks @ss and if you don't want to believe me because the ingredients list looks "yucky" to you... thats fine. A list of words on paper cannot tell you the full nutritional profile of the food, and thats a fact.

Use appropriate proportions of vitamin E with your fatty acids and supplement heavily if you want to get the same effects as the food.

Since you seem to know a bit about this food, I'll pick your brain a bit if you don't mind--
-If grains tend to irritate joints, then why are there so many grains?
-Where is the actual nutricion in the food coming from?
-Won't there be long term effects from the quality of the food on Jack's health?

I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, I'm just worried.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

Ewww. It's basically corn, by products (the ONLY meat), peanut hulls, soybean "mill run", with a few healthy supplements like Glucosamine and L carnitine. I think that you can probably get the same benefits from a better food- without the downside of feeding those crappy ingredients.

Sigh... I really wish people would get over the "corn is evil, and by-products aren't nutritious" balogney... and I really wish Hills would learn to put more meat in their foods... Honestly, the food kicks @ss and if you don't want to believe me because the ingredients list looks "yucky" to you... thats fine. A list of words on paper cannot tell you the full nutritional profile of the food, and thats a fact.

Don't put words in my mouth please.The ingredients that I was referring to as complete crap are the soybean mill run, peanut hulls, soybean meal, etc. I did not say that corn is evil or that by products aren't nutritious. I think both ingredients are fine in moderation. BUT I do think it makes for a crappy food for carnivores when the main ingredient is corn and there's no meat- only by products. I actually think it's pretty amazing that Hills is able to take ingredients like peanut hulls, soybean mill run, etc. and come up with a food that has the correct nutrient profile for managing different conditions. But, just because the food does that doesn't mean it's healthy for the dog overall or that there isn't another food that could help with the joints AND use healthy ingredients. []

Edited for clarification.

I think that this thread could use a tad less arrogance.

I agree luvntzus, it looks like a gross food overall, maybe there's some hidden magic that "laymen" like you and I cannot see.

it's a gross food with joint supplements and omega-3 fatty acids added. I would never feed it. I can understand feeding some of the other prescription diets, say for kidney disease or whatever, but the only beneficial aspect of the j/d diet is the joint supplements which you can easily add to any diet.
If he were my dog, I'd feed him a raw diet, supplement with joint supplements and cold pressed fish body oil; I'd keep him very thin to avoid stressing the bad joint; and swim him as often as possible.
 

Christina--I haven't read the link with the ingredients or anything like that.  But, speaking purely as someone who has seen excellent results on a Hill's diet. My opinion would be to use it for awhile and add in some fresh foods when your able.  And, hopefully eventually he will be able to wean onto supplements and foods that are more acceptable to you. 

I think that this thread could use a tad less arrogance.

Maybe if people would quit using words like EWW and Gross it would spark less "arrogant" responses, just a thought. It would be nice to see some actual evidence that the food is "yucky" or not useful if you are going to bash it. Just another thought. It's just hard for me to take advice seriously when it is presented in that way, the OP has a valid question.

Edit: here is the abstract of a nice article on diet and joint disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17085237&query_hl=15&itool=pubmed_DocSum
Here is one about development of elbow dysplasia in labs
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16772494&query_hl=15&itool=pubmed_DocSum

If the vet wants your pup on a veterinary diet, ask him/her about possibly switching to a Eukanuba or Royal Canin diet. The Euk Vet Diet Joint Formula has more meat and higher protein [linkhttp://us.iams.com/iams/en_US/jsp/IAMS_Page.jsp?pageID=PL&productID=100880]Eukanuba Adult Plus[/link]

3,913 kcal/kg, 379 kcal/cup, 3.41 oz./cup




Ingredients
Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken By-Product Meal, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E, and Citric Acid), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Flax Meal, Choline Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, DL-Methionine, Ferrous Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, L-Carnitine, Beta-Carotene, Chondroitin Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, Cobalt Carbonate

Guaranteed Analysis

Nutrient
(percent)

Crude Protein not less than
23.0%

Crude Fat not less than
13.0%

Crude Fat not more than
16.0%

Crude Fiber not more than
5.0%

Moisture not more than
10.0%

Vitamin E not less than
200.00 IU/kg

L-Carnitine not less than
40.00 ppm*

Omega-6 Fatty Acids not less than
1.50%*

Omega-3 Fatty Acids not less than
0.30%*

Glucosamine not less than
475.00 mg/kg*

Chondroitin Sulfate not less than
45.00 mg/kg*

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

Hmm....I was looking on there to see how many mg of Glucosamine, etc was in it but couldn't see it. Does it have it listed on the bag? If so, you could try and find another food that has a comparable amount (since that is all the J/D is designed to do--besides being low calorie).

No unfortunately it does not mention it on the bag.....

It lists it in the ingredients on the website; [linkhttp://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441776675&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302037389&bmUID=1178846693216]http://www.hillspet.com/zSkin_2/products/product_details.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441776675&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302037389&bmUID=1178846693216[/link]

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Flaxseed, Soybean Mill Run, Brewers Rice, Soybean Meal, Peanut Hulls, Chicken Liver Flavor, Fish Oil, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Iodized Salt, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, Soy Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), L-Tryptophan, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, Chondroitin Sulfate, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

  It's supposed to be high in fatty acids;
"Hill's® Prescription Diet® j/d™ Canine is an innovative dog food that helps maintain healthy joints and improves mobility in dogs. Its unique formula contains high levels of EPA (Eicosapentanoic Acid), an omega-3 fatty acid found in high concentrations in fish oil. Research has shown that EPA can help maintain joint function. Enhanced levels of glucosamine and chondroitin provide the building blocks of healthy cartilage, and L-carnitine, which helps maintain optimum body weight. j/d™ Canine improves the quality of life by helping dogs run better, play better, and rise more easily."

Perhaps you could add fatty acid supplements and joint supplements to what you feed Jake now? I'm glad he didn't have cancer; I know you were worried about that.

I was wondering why the mg amount was not listed.

Hi. This is just my opinion, but with a vet specialist for the condition that your dog has, I would go with what the vet said. If you aren't comfortable with the food, can you call them and see if maybe there is another prescription food or a different food they would recommend to help?
With my dogs, one has allergies so I use a food that doesn't irritate her allergies. And in general, I do think that when it comes to regular dog foods that vets don't always know best, but I really think that, especially the specialists, know what they are talking about when recommending a prescription food.
Again, it is just my opinion, but if a vet recommended a prescription food for a particular condition they had, I would go ahead and try it. 

Maybe if people would quit using words like EWW and Gross it would spark less "arrogant" responses,

 
come on, those ingredients? you would feel comfortable feeding that to your dog? especially since the "active" ingredients are easily obtainable and can be added to any food?

I think that most prescription foods are designed for most dog owners who are not going to be bothered with supplements and the like.  It is much simpler for both owner and vet to just recommend a prescription food that the vet knows will be fed, v.s. supplementation which is more involved and the client may not be as good about giving it to the dog.
 
I agree with the suggestion of a supplemented custom diet designed by a nutritional specialist.  Think about it - isn't this what a human doctor would recommend for rmost health problems along with a prescribed medication?  We don't walk out of a doctor's office with a bag of prescription food to eat at every single meal.
 
Additionally, if you were to read the ingredients of all the Hills prescription diets, you would come to the conclusion that every single possible health problem in pets is solved by putting them on a diet based on mostly grain byproducts supplemented with meat by products.  Peanut hulls and Soybean meal run must be the miraculous cure for every disease!

come on, those ingredients? you would feel comfortable feeding that to your dog? especially since the "active" ingredients are easily obtainable and can be added to any food?

So maybe a better and less inflammatory response would be "the only thing I see different in the prescription food is additional omega 3's and glucosamine. You can add these things to the food that you are already using and likely get the same result. In addition, I prefer foods with less grains which mimics more closely the diet of wolves" or whatever. Again, just a thought[sm=banghead002.gif]

I  would stick with professional advice at least initially.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

Ewww. It's basically corn, by products (the ONLY meat), peanut hulls, soybean "mill run", with a few healthy supplements like Glucosamine and L carnitine. I think that you can probably get the same benefits from a better food- without the downside of feeding those crappy ingredients.

Sigh... I really wish people would get over the "corn is evil, and by-products aren't nutritious" balogney... and I really wish Hills would learn to put more meat in their foods... Honestly, the food kicks @ss and if you don't want to believe me because the ingredients list looks "yucky" to you... thats fine. A list of words on paper cannot tell you the full nutritional profile of the food, and thats a fact.

Use appropriate proportions of vitamin E with your fatty acids and supplement heavily if you want to get the same effects as the food.

As I've said before, you can feed your dog hot dog meat and fillers, but I won't and I wouldn't recommend it to any friend of mine.  Corn is fine, but "soybean mill run" is a filler, plain and simple.

I'm so sorry Christina.  If I were you I'd go back to Animal Wellness Clinic ( to those not in the loop, Animal Wellness Clinic did not recommend the j/d, they told Christina to go to Purdue) and ask Dr. Puerling what she would recommend.  She doen't like to recommend SD prescription foods unless she has to.  She sells and recommends Breeder's Choice Active Care, which is loaded with Glucosamine and Chondroitin and is lower in protien.  Dr. Puerling may be able to recommend a home cooked diet for you. 

I honestly think SD j/d is a complete waste of money and detrimental to Jack's young healthy. 

Here are the ingredients for Breeders Choice Active Care.
Ingredients
Brown Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Cartilage (Source of Glucosamine and Chondroitin Sulfate), Canola Oil, Flax Seed, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Grapeseed Oil, Brewers Dried Yeast, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Monosodium Phosphate, DL-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Source of Vitamin E), Sodium Selenite, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Copper Sulfate, Amino Acid Chelates of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Niacin, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, D-Biotin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement.

If you go with the Active Care add raw bone and and probiotics, which will help him absorb the glucosamine and chondroitin better.