Feeding Jack-Hill's j/d-other food options?

Use appropriate proportions of vitamin E with your fatty acids and supplement heavily if you want to get the same effects as the food.

How heavy is "heavy"? I supplement EFAs in an amount that I would call "heavy", but.... My "heavy" and your "heavy" may not be the same. Emma weighs in at a whopping 18.2 pounds (she's gained 1/2 pound!) and she gets a tablespoon of fish or flax oil, daily, with 400 IU of vit e. I keep her lean, but she did recently gain just enough to cover her spine and hips.

Personally, I've not used a prescription diet with any success, but the one dog I used one on was dying, to begin with. She crashed on K/D, then crashed on Wellness Senior cans, then crashed on homecooked. She wasn't going to live, regardless.  I have seen some dogs have fantastic results from Hills RX diets, and some have poor results. When Emma needed an RX food, and couldn't have any of the available liver diets (because of her allergies), I did a ton of research and made an appropriate home cooked diet. Lots of bashing and flaming happened, because of that diet (white rice, tofu, veggies, and supplements), but it kept her alive and in good shape, for a long time. When she started doing poorly on it, I read some more, and came up with an alternative. Diets for specific conditions can't always be what we want, but it is possible for some dogs and some owners to come up with an alternative to prescriptions.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

How heavy is "heavy"? I supplement EFAs in an amount that I would call "heavy", but.... My "heavy" and your "heavy" may not be the same. Emma weighs in at a whopping 18.2 pounds (she's gained 1/2 pound!) and she gets a tablespoon of fish or flax oil, daily, with 400 IU of vit e. I keep her lean, but she did recently gain just enough to cover her spine and hips.

If I knew a dose, I would tell the OP, but I don't. The levels of fatty acids in the j/d and b/d diets are supposedly difficult to attain with supplementation alone, but I don't know where I heard or read that.

Also keep in mind that these prescription diets are clinically proven to work, anything else you try probably is not.  They also have numerous Certified Veterinary Nutritionists that design these diets, I'm sure if you asked one of them why a certain ingredient was used they would have a good reason for it being in the food robably a reason most of us lay people did not realize. If it was my dog I would feed it.
 
 
Canine j/d was developed based on more than 10 years of research including several recent clinical trials with more than 500 dogs. In one study, eight out of 10 dogs fed Canine j/d experienced improvement in weight-bearing ability. Conclusions were based upon extensive research from four clinical studies with more than 50 practicing veterinarians, including one university study and three practice-based studies on client-owned dogs. Feeding periods in the studies ranged from three to six months.

ORIGINAL: abbysdad

Also keep in mind that these prescription diets are clinically proven to work, anything else you try probably is not. 

How do you know that anything else you try will not work?  I know a lot of people who have dogs with joint/skeletal issues who have vastly improved on supplemented commerical, home cooked and raw diets.  It just takes more thought then pouring specially designed kibble from a bag.  It is true that some dogs really need to be on these prescription diets because they work better than alternatives, but that is the minority rather than the majority that they are prescribed for.

 

Canine j/d was developed based on more than 10 years of research including several recent clinical trials with more than 500 dogs. In one study, eight out of 10 dogs fed Canine j/d experienced improvement in weight-bearing ability. Conclusions were based upon extensive research from four clinical studies with more than 50 practicing veterinarians, including one university study and three practice-based studies on client-owned dogs. Feeding periods in the studies ranged from three to six months.

What other parameters are they measuring though?  Are they also assessing other indicators of health?  Are they looking at lifespan?  How much can you really tell from the 3 to 6 month study other than the fact that the dogs had better mobility?  Were they comparing the results to a properly supplemented normal kibble/canned diet?  To a supplemented homecooked diet?  Or to just a non-supplemented commercial diet?

The only thing these studies need to prove is that the food does what it says it's supposed to do (which I'm sure it does) with the dog still being alive at the end of the study.

ORIGINAL: jenns


What other parameters are they measuring though?  Are they also assessing other indicators of health?  Are they looking at lifespan?  How much can you really tell from the 3 to 6 month study other than the fact that the dogs had better mobility?  Were they comparing the results to a properly supplemented normal kibble/canned diet?  To a supplemented homecooked diet?  Or to just a non-supplemented commercial diet?

The only thing these studies need to prove is that the food does what it says it's supposed to do (which I'm sure it does) with the dog still being alive at the end of the study.

These studies were not aafco feeding tests. They were clinical trials. One study looked at owner opinions in improvement (possibly even double blinded if I remember correctly) and another study used force plate analysis. The control group was a non-supplemented diet. They were not looking at quantity of life, they're looking at QUALITY of life, and the j/d produces consistent results.

Also, for those of you who are wondering about the peanut hulls and such, the #1 contributing factor in hip dysplasia and degenerative joint disease is obesity. The majority of dogs who eat this food are obese, and it is designed not only as a joint protective diet, but also as a weight loss diet. If your dog is NOT overweight, then once again, supplementing is also an option, but for the majority of owners, thats just too much on one plate, and feeding j/d is the easiest and healthiest way to do everything at once.

Thank you Ottoluv for trying to be a voice of reason, and to any others who didn't go off the deep end.
 
Christina, with the panic over the recalls, I'm betting nutritionalists are tough to get to right now.  It's likely they have a waiting list.  I think that my plan would be to feed the "ewwwww...gross....yucky" food until I could get with a canine nutritionalist to come up with a better plan.
 
I don't know if you have the time or inclination to homecook, but at the very least a nutritionalist can steer you to a better quality food and the proper amounts of supplementation.  Mordanna might be able to help if you email her, and I'm betting our own Callie could come up with some pretty good ideas for you.  If you can't find her addy, email me and I'll send it your way.
 
I'm really sorry to hear about Jack.

I'm with Abby's Dad on this also.  A friend of ours ShihTsu was placed on Hill's K/D diet at age 9 and just last month went to the bridge at 17.  The owner put him to sleep just because he was too old and everything was deteriorating at once.  He told me on the advice of the vet, he would fry up some ground beef and put just a little over the food now and then.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

Also, for those of you who are wondering about the peanut hulls and such, the #1 contributing factor in hip dysplasia and degenerative joint disease is obesity. The majority of dogs who eat this food are obese, and it is designed not only as a joint protective diet, but also as a weight loss diet. If your dog is NOT overweight, then once again, supplementing is also an option, but for the majority of owners, thats just too much on one plate, and feeding j/d is the easiest and healthiest way to do everything at once.

I guess I can see where this food could be a good way for the average Joe Schmo to easily keep weight off their dog and give joint supplements all with one food. BUT I don't think Christina falls into that category.

Here are quotes from  ACVN's when they are asked  to design homemade diets that are similar to some of the Hill's prescription diets.   They did not mention j/d specifically.

"I have formulated homemade diets close to but never exactly equal to the l/d in nutrient content. "
 
"z/d is a hydrolyzed protein diet and very difficult to replicate"
 
"I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the term "better natural" diet. The Hill's l/d diet is a very specifically formulated diet which has a nutrient profile and advantages that would be difficult to copy in a homemade diet."
 
"No there is no other food like s/d for stone dissolution"
 
"We can formulate such a home made diet but the factors that make s/d less palatable will still be present in the home made diet. "
 
"The s/d diet is a highly specialized diet designed for the dissolution of struvite crystals. The diet has several features that have been shown to not only prevent the formation of new crystals but also dissolve struvite stones. In order to do this, the diet is a very low protein and magnesium and urine acidifying diet.
Basically adding anything to the s/d diet will alter those characteristics and hinder the effectiveness of the diet."

All i can tell you is that i have used SD prescritptions twice on two different dogs and both times it did wha it was suppose to.

What the heck![]  I can't forum right today.  Opps

ORIGINAL: jenns



Also, for those of you who are wondering about the peanut hulls and such, the #1 contributing factor in hip dysplasia and degenerative joint disease is obesity. The majority of dogs who eat this food are obese, and it is designed not only as a joint protective diet, but also as a weight loss diet. If your dog is NOT overweight, then once again, supplementing is also an option, but for the majority of owners, thats just too much on one plate, and feeding j/d is the easiest and healthiest way to do everything at once.

I love debates, but remember we are trying to help Christina decide what to feed poor Jack.  Jack is not overwieght, he is a growing 10 month old puppy!!!  Should we feed a growing 10 month old puppy a food for overwieght dogs.  On top of that the "factor" behind Jack's elbow displaysia is genetics, not obesity.  Further, he's a lab puppy who poops enough as it is.  He doen't need more "fillers" to make him pooh more.

I would agree in general that MOST vets don't know alot about better foods and nutrition.  However, I believe that the RX formulas are formulated as they are for a good reason and that those formulas have been shown to do the job that they are intended to do.  Hence, my advice to start with the SD and consult a canine nutritionalist about an alternative.
 
It concerns me that so many folks are putting down these foods.  In many cases they are the ONLY thing that works.

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

...Jack is not overwieght, he is a growing 10 month old puppy!!!  Should we feed a growing 10 month old puppy a food for overwieght dogs.  On top of that the "factor" behind Jack's elbow displaysia is genetics, not obesity... 

Excellent points.

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

ORIGINAL: jojo the pogo

...Jack is not overwieght, he is a growing 10 month old puppy!!!  Should we feed a growing 10 month old puppy a food for overwieght dogs.  On top of that the "factor" behind Jack's elbow displaysia is genetics, not obesity... 

Excellent points.

Thank You
[quote/]

I would agree in general that MOST vets don't know alot about better foods and nutrition.  However, I believe that the RX formulas are formulated as they are for a good reason and that those formulas have been shown to do the job that they are intended to do.  Hence, my advice to start with the SD and consult a canine nutritionalist about an alternative.
[quote//]

Her husband consulted my somewhat holistic vet.  She did mention the good points behind SD j/d - the fatty acids and so on, but said she does not like the extreme low protien, fillers, and by products.  He asked her about grain free diets and she did say that there have been studies proving that dogs with joint problems benefit from a diet free of "grain protiens."  She recommended Active Care, which she sells in her clinic.  But when asking her what she would do if this was her dog...she said she would feed him a good natural food, some raw meat and heavely suppliment and limit heavy activity.  She recommended swimming for Jack and several short walks a day, instead of one long one.

Basically she recommended that they suppliment Jack.  She gave him a photocopy of a bunch of suppliments proven to help with joint problems.