all life stage foods... split from raw for puppies

    • Gold Top Dog

    all life stage foods... split from raw for puppies

    ORIGINAL: janet_rose

    Super premiums are NOT adult food for puppies... its puppy food for adults.

    Misskiwi67, I have read this sentence several times and I still don't understand it.  Would you please explain?


    Ok, so I'm no nutritionist... far from it in fact, so I'm going to use a peer reviewed article that I believe "sort of" answers this question.

    Basically, puppies nutrient requirements are much more strict than adult food requirements. Therefore, when a food says it meets the needs of "all life stages" it meets minimum and maximum requirements for both growth AND maintenance. Since the requirements for puppies are more strict, its basically puppy food that has been "tweaked" to make it acceptable for marketing as a food for the entire life of a dog.

    I apologize that the charts aren't showing up well... I can't figure out how to fix them.

    Practical Nutritional and Dietary Recommendations: Minimizing Clinical Aspects of Orthopedic Diseases

    Rebecca L. Remillard, PhD, DVM
    Diplomate American College of Veterinary Nutrition
    Veterinary Nutritionist
    Angell Memorial Animal Hospital
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Used here with permission from Dr. Rebecca Remillard, author An excessive intake of energy, protein, and calcium by growing dogs is incompatible with optimal skeletal development.1 Excessive energy intake, in any portion of fat, carbohydrate, and/or protein, does not directly cause skeletal disease; rather, excess gross energy fosters a rapid growth rate, which contributes to skeletal disease.2,3 Dietary protein, as a source of nitrogen and essential amino acids for bodily protein synthesis, does not cause skeletal disease. Amino acids consumed in excess of bodily requirements for protein synthesis are deaminated and the carbon structures are burned or stored for energy. Protein intakes above requirements do not directly cause skeletal disease but rather provide additional energy for a rapid growth rate, which contributes to skeletal disease.4 Excessive total calcium intake is recognized as a major contributor to skeletal disease, whereas the ratio of calcium to phosphorus appears to be less important. At this time, only these three nutrients are to be considered in the pathogenesis of skeletal diseases in growing dogs. In light of this information, what recommendations and guidelines can we give to owners for feeding large and giant breed pups to minimize the dietary effects on skeletal diseases? Our recommendations should address nutrient levels of energy, protein, and calcium and methods of feeding.

    NUTRITIONAL MANAGEMENT
    Complete and Balanced Products Most of the pet owners in the United States already feed their dogs a commercially produced food that is determined to be "complete and balanced" for some or all stages of the dog's life. The word "balanced" does not take into consideration all the information currently known on overnutrition and skeletal diseases. Until recently, foods were labeled "complete and balanced" if the product met or exceeded the minimum dietary nutrient concentrations for the dog set by the National Research Council (NRC).7 Given that overnutrition contributes to skeletal diseases, these NRC guidelines were not helpful in that regard. Currently, the required nutritional guidelines for "complete and balanced" are established by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Canine Nutrient Expert Subcommittee.8 These newer AAFCO nutrient recommendations include a maximum concentration for 12 nutrients including calcium and phosphorus but not energy, fat, or protein (Table 1). The AAFCO recommendation for calcium (1% to 2.5%) is well within a range that should not contribute to skeletal diseases as demonstrated in the Great Dane studies.3,6 Caloric density is assumed to be 3.5 kcal metabolizable energy (ME)/g dry matter for both puppy and adult formulas, and nutrient adjustments are required when 4.0 kcal/g is exceeded. Only minimal requirements for fat (the major source of energy) and protein are listed. Most puppy and some adult dog foods exceed these AAFCO energy, fat, and protein recommendations. Therefore, recommending pet food products that are judged by AAFCO to be "complete and balanced" to owners of large and giant breed puppies may only prevent the excessive intake of calcium

    Guaranteed Analysis and Feeding Guidelines
    The pet food label is only required to report minimal crude protein and crude fat. Minimum crude protein and fat data on the label should not be taken as the actual protein or fat content of the product. The calcium content and caloric density of a pet food product are not required label information. Often, a phone number is given on the label and may be called to obtain specific data such as actual protein, fat, calcium, and caloric density. Product feeding guidelines are required on the label but should only be used as a starting point, many guidelines overestimate the amount of food required by a pet. Therefore, feeding according to the label instructions or guaranteed analysis table does not preclude excessive energy, protein, or calcium intake.

    TABLE 1
    AAFCO Nutrient Growth
    Profiles of Dog Foods a
      [align=center]% on DM Basis Nutrient Minimum Maximum Protein 22 None Fat 8 None Calcium 1.0 2.5 a Based upon an energy density of 3.5 kcal/g dry matter.

    Feeding Maintenance Foods
    There are nutritional problems with feeding a maintenance food to growing puppies. Some adult maintenance formulas contain nutrients that also exceed growing puppies' requirements when expressed as either a percentage or in absolute amounts (Table 2). The majority of dogs eat at least enough food to meet a certain caloric minimum. All other nutrients in the food must be balanced to the caloric density so that when the pet stops eating, the other 35+ nutrient requirements have been met. As shown in Table 2, all nutrients in both puppy and adult products exceed the AAFCO growth minimums on a percent basis, whereas quantities of all nutrients per 1000 kcal of ME are greater in the adult formula than in the puppy formula. In other words, if a 15 lb puppy ate enough food to meet a caloric requirement of 1000 kcal, it would consume more protein, fat, calcium, and fiber when fed the adult food versus the puppy food. If the fiber content is sufficiently higher in the maintenance formula, the pup may reach physical fullness before consuming enough food to meet some of its other nutritional requirements. Increased fiber content also decreases diet total digestibility, decreasing overall nutrient availability to the puppy. Therefore, recommending that owners of large and giant breeds feed the adult formula rather than a comparable growth product before a puppy reaches 80% of its mature size does not ensure a significant decreased consumption of nutrients that contribute to skeletal diseases.

    TABLE2
    Puppy and Adult Dry Formulas a Compared to AAFCO Growth Profiles
      As Fed Basis Nutrient AAFCO Minimum/
    Maximum
    Puppy Adult Percentage Basis       Energy (kcal/g) b 3.2/None 5.0 4.3 Protein (%) 22/None 28 c 26 c Fat (%) 8/None 17 c 16 c Calcium (%) 1.0/2.5 1.52 1.48 Fiber (%) None 4 d 4 d   Caloric Basis       Protein (g/1000 kcal ME) 63/None 56 60 Fat (g/1000 kcal ME) 23/None 34 37 Calcium (g/1000 kcal ME) 2.9/7.1 3.03 3.42 Fiber (g/1000 kcal ME) None 8 9   a  Nutro Maxpuppy and Max (Nutro Products, Inc.).
    b  Energy values are calculated estimates.
    c  Minimum.
    d  Maximum.

    AAFCO Feeding Protocols
    There is an AAFCO feeding protocol for proving a growth claim on a product. In this protocol weaned puppies (6 to 8 weeks old of any breed) are fed only the test food product ad libitum for 10 weeks. The puppies are often 4.5 months old when the test is completed. Neither radiography nor palpation of joints is required in the protocol. Canine hip dysplasia, the most frequently encountered orthopedic disease in veterinary practice, appears in the growing dog between 3 to 8 months of age. Therefore, recommending owners of large and giant breeds feed only a product that has an AAFCO feeding trial approval for growth cannot preclude the development of skeletal diseases because the feeding trial is not designed to detect products that may contribute to orthopedic diseases. Given the lack of a generally acceptable benchmark, I presently use all available information in selecting a particular pet food product. To owners of large and giant breeds, I recommend products that:
    • Successfully passed the AAFCO growth feeding trials
    • Contain nutrients within the current AAFCO minimums and maximums
    • Contain protein levels between 20% and 22% as fed dry and 6% to 8% as fed canned
    • Contain fat levels between 8% to 10% as fed dry and 2% to 4% as fed canned
    • Contain fiber levels below 3% as fed dry and 1 % as fed canned
    The protein content is the most variable factor. The minimum protein required is dependent upon protein digestibility, amino acid profile (quantity and ratio), and bioavailability. As protein digestibility increases and the amino acid profile in the food more closely matches the pet's requirement, less total protein is required in the diet. For example, the protein content of an ultra-low protein product (Prescription Diet® Canine u/d ®-Hill's Pet Products) is 10% on a dry matter basis. but, because the protein source (egg, whey, meat) is nearly 100% digestible and has an amino acid profile very similar to canine requirements, this product can be fed to adult dogs for life. When protein levels of 13%, 21%, and 30% (as fed basis) were fed to growing Great Dane pups, there was no significant effect on skeletal development. Further examination of the diet revealed that the food contained 10% fat, 3% fiber, 1.0% calcium, and 3.6 kcal ME/g dry matter on an as fed basis. There were no significant differences among protein groups in final weight, height, or degree of skeletal disease. The low protein group did have low normal albumin levels throughout the trial, which indicates that 13% protein was the lowest limit when using those particular protein sources (bloodmeal, casein, soybean). The excess protein in the 30% group was probably catabolized to energy but apparently added insignificantly to the relatively low energy diet.4 To my knowledge, no commercial puppy food meets the above criteria. There are products available that meet the criteria, including successful completion of an AAFCO growth feeding trial, but they are marketed as adult maintenance or even inactive adult dog foods. A manufacturer may test a food according to the growth feeding protocol but market the product as suitable for adult dog maintenance. This is appropriate because if a product supports growing puppies, it will meet the minimum requirements for maintenance as well. All the information needed for the above five criteria may or may not be available on the package but should be available through informational phone numbers or technical sheets. I suggest feeding large and giant breed puppies a product marketed for growth until 4 to 5 months of age and then changing to a product that meets the five criteria discussed above.

    METHODS OF FEEDING
    In addition to suggesting nutrient guidelines, recommendations on feeding management of puppies that supports growth but limits intake excesses should be made. There have been several studies in which large or giant breed puppies were fed the same diet but at two different intakes. Hedhammer and coworkers9 reported Great Dane puppies fed ad libitum had markedly more skeletal pathology than paired littermates fed the same diet at a restricted intake of 67% ad libitum. Lavelle2 also fed paired Great Dane littermates a diet at two levels of intake, ad libitum versus 60% ad libitum, but reported only more advanced skeletal development in the group fed ad libitum and no difference in long bone length at 30 weeks of age. More recently, Kealy and colleagues10 reported feeding the same diet either ad libitum or 75% ad libitum to Labrador retrievers beginning at 8 weeks of age and continuing until the animals were 2 years old; those fed the restricted intake had less femoral head subluxation and less degenerative joint disease. In another study, beagles and Labrador retriever puppies were fed either ad libitum or 80% ad libitum for 1 year.11 Dogs of both breeds fed ad libitum weighed 22% to 25% more than the dogs on restricted diets because of increased body fat. There was no difference in body length, height, bone size, or muscle mass between feeding protocol groups within each breed. Clearly, feeding breeds prone to orthopedic diseases ad libitum is conducive to the development of skeletal diseases, although the details of the mechanism are still not known. Additionally, feeding large and small breeds ad libitum during growth contributes to obesity later in life. There are three methods described for feeding puppies: free choice, amount restricted, and time-restricted feeding. Free choice feeding is easiest but not appropriate in the prevention of orthopedic diseases and obesity. Amount restricted feeding requires recalculation of food quantity as the dog grows. Recommending that an owner feed 60% to 75% of ad libitum intake is not a useful concept, particularly for new pet owners. Time-restricted feeding may be the most practical; however, the appropriate amount of time is seemingly different among puppies. Some puppies consume too much food in 5 minutes, whereas others can have access to food for 30 minutes without overeating. Labrador retriever puppies, ranging in age from 8 to 34 weeks, fed two 30 minute meals a day are reported to have consumed 15% less than paired littermates fed ad libitum,12 but final body weights were only slightly less in the time-restricted feeding group (28.3 kg versus 27.2 kg). One other useful piece of information is that growing dogs consume between 2.1% and 5% of their body weight in food dry matter when offered a palatable diet free choice.13 There are no published growth curves for a variety of canine breeds such that an individual dog's growth could be compared with the breed average. This information may be available for certain breeds from large pet nutrition centers and may be useful to practicing veterinarians if compiled and published.

    FEEDING GUIDELINES FOR PUPPIES
    I presently recommend the following feeding guidelines to owners of large and giant breed puppies: Products
    • Products marketed for growth-Offer three times a day for puppies aged 2 to 6 months.
    • A product that meets the previously stated five criteria (which may be marketed as an adult formula)-Offer two times a day until the dog reaches 80% of its mature body size.
    • A product marketed for adult dogs with a caloric and fiber content that maintains optimal body weight for the individual dog-Offer two times a day for life.
    Methods
    • Feed a puppy unlimited amounts of food for a limited time period. At mealtime, offer a large bowl of food for 5 minutes; after the time has expired, remove all food and do not offer any other foods until the next meal time.
    • If the puppy appears to be overeating in the 5 minute period and is gaining weight rapidly, reduce the feeding period by half until the weight gain is reduced.
    • If the puppy is not getting enough food in the 5 minute period (evidenced by no weight gain), increase the time in increments of 5 minutes until weight gain begins. Do not use appetite or appearance of hunger as the only guideline by which to justify increasing the time.
    Supplements, Treats, Snacks, and Table Foods
    • Strongly discourage the owner from feeding supplements, treats, snacks, and table foods. These feeding practices lead to malnourished, obese, begging, and finicky pets. Particularly important is the elimination of calcium and vitamin D supplements; vitamin C supplementation is apparently harmless.
    Food Type
    • Dry food formulas are preferable for large and giant breed dogs because these are usually more economical, more convenient to feed, and less palatable than canned foods.
    Water
    • Always have clean water available.
    The canine species has a tremendously wide degree of variability in body weight and height. The species ranges from the Chihuahua (2 to 6 lb and 5 to 11 inches at the shoulder) to the mastiff (170 to 195 lb and 26 to 31 inches at the shoulder)--a 30-fold metabolic difference. We currently feed dogs according to the life stages of growth, maintenance, and reproduction, but it is inappropriate to design one feeding system or to recommend one food product or nutrient profile for all breeds within even one life stage. Therefore, frequent (monthly) reevaluation of the dog's growth rate is essential.
    • Gold Top Dog
    it is my opinion that if a food is not good enough for a puppy it shouldn't be fed to adult dogs either. If too much calcium distorts a puppy's bones, it can't be good for adult dogs. If too little protein inhibits puppy growth, it can't be optimal for adult dogs.  If there aren't enough vitamins to support a puppy's growth, it can't be good for adult dogs.
    And to make it even more confusing, most of the puppy foods on the market shouldn't be fed to puppies. Or adults. Too rich, promoting too-rapid growth of puppies.  Just because small breed puppies don't show overt symptoms if they grow too fast doesn't mean their health isn't being compromised.
    • Gold Top Dog
    AAFCO Feeding Protocols There is an AAFCO feeding protocol for proving a growth claim on a product. In this protocol weaned puppies (6 to 8 weeks old of any breed) are fed only the test food product ad libitum for 10 weeks. The puppies are often 4.5 months old when the test is completed. Neither radiography nor palpation of joints is required in the protocol. Canine hip dysplasia, the most frequently encountered orthopedic disease in veterinary practice, appears in the growing dog between 3 to 8 months of age. Therefore, recommending owners of large and giant breeds feed only a product that has an AAFCO feeding trial approval for growth cannot preclude the development of skeletal diseases because the feeding trial is not designed to detect products that may contribute to orthopedic diseases.

     
      Thanks for posting this. I especially found the information above very interesting.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    it is my opinion that if a food is not good enough for a puppy it shouldn't be fed to adult dogs either. If too much calcium distorts a puppy's bones, it can't be good for adult dogs. If too little protein inhibits puppy growth, it can't be optimal for adult dogs.  If there aren't enough vitamins to support a puppy's growth, it can't be good for adult dogs.
    And to make it even more confusing, most of the puppy foods on the market shouldn't be fed to puppies. Or adults. Too rich, promoting too-rapid growth of puppies.  Just because small breed puppies don't show overt symptoms if they grow too fast doesn't mean their health isn't being compromised.


    Again, you assume that puppies and adults are the same. Puppies DO NOT restrict the amount of calcium they absorb until 6 months of age, they absorb every single molecule they can. Dogs on the other hand only absorb what they need.
    • Gold Top Dog

  • Dry food formulas are preferable for large and giant breed dogs because these are usually more economical, more convenient to feed, and less palatable than canned foods.

  •  
    OK I don't understand the logic here. You don't want to feed a large breed dog canned food because it tastes better (more palatable) than dry food? This statement makes me wonder about the entire article.
    • Gold Top Dog
    OK I don't understand the logic here. You don't want to feed a large breed dog canned food because it tastes better (more palatable) than dry food? This statement makes me wonder about the entire article.


    You have to read the entire paper:  "One other useful piece of information is that growing dogs consume between 2.1% and 5% of their body weight in food dry matter when offered a palatable diet free choice."

    If you are feeding free choice, a less palatable diet will help restrict calories.  The dogs will eat because they are hungry, not because it tastes good.  Important for large and giant breeds that you need to keep lean, and have a tendancy to over eat.
    • Gold Top Dog
    AAFCO feeding trials are such a joke.
     
    You should never feed a puppy the way that article describes. Unlimited food for five minutes?  free choice feeding?  crazy.
     
    I've always fed the same diet to adults and pups. You think wolf puppies get some kind of special puppy diet? no, they get the same stuff their parents eat.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

    AAFCO feeding trials are such a joke.

    You should never feed a puppy the way that article describes. Unlimited food for five minutes?  free choice feeding?  crazy.

    I've always fed the same diet to adults and pups. You think wolf puppies get some kind of special puppy diet? no, they get the same stuff their parents eat.


    I never understood the whole "free choice" and timed meals.  My Lab puppy finishes his bowl of food in about 2 minutes.  If I fed him anymore than that, he'd be severely overweight, and I'd need a second mortgage.  I don't get the "complication" of planned meals.  Roughly figure how many calories he needs.  Compute that into cups of food taking into consideration dry, canned, fish oil, and treats.  Divide that by 2 or 3 meals a day.  Watch him for changes in weight and adjust accordingly.  Is it that hard?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have seen this same vet nutritionist quoted in articles where she is advising a dry kibble only diet for dogs and cats.  I think most of us here would disagree with that advice.  It is especially dangerous and irresponsible to advise such a feeding regimen for cats who need water content in their food to avoid kidney problems.  The article also uses low quality, grain based foods as examples, which in my opinion is not healthy for a dog at any life stage.
     
    As for free feeding, my dog would eat until she burst if given the opportunity as a puppy, and that is when she was only on a dry kibble diet.  I also believe that free feeding a puppy leads to bad eating habits as an adult.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have seen this same vet nutritionist quoted in articles where she is advising a dry kibble only diet for dogs and cats. I think most of us here would disagree with that advice. It is especially dangerous and irresponsible to advise such a feeding regimen for cats who need water content in their food to avoid kidney problems. The article also uses low quality, grain based foods as examples, which in my opinion is not healthy for a dog at any life stage.


    Dr. Remillard is one the most respected, well trained experts in the field.  She has a DVM and a PhD.  I just reviewed all of her publications on pubmed as well as the web page she founded about vetinary nutrition and I don't see where she advocates all kibble diets.  Do you have any links to support this?  I personally trust her experience after reading her publications and qualifications.

    Here are her citations in pubmed
    [linkhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Remillard+RL%22%5BAuthor%5D]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Remillard+RL%22%5BAuthor%5D[/link]

    Here is the web page she founded (the about the founder page)
    [linkhttp://www.petdiets.com/aboutfounder.asp]http://www.petdiets.com/aboutfounder.asp[/link]


    • Gold Top Dog
    I prefer to use most of a puppy's food as training rewards. You need to train your puppy, you need to feed your puppy, why not combine them.
    • Puppy
    I wish Dr Remillard would use some of that expertise to actually put together some decent home made diets.The recipes I've seen of her doing are not impressive at all, basically engineered to work just like kibble. A source of protein, fats and carbs with no thought to their nutrient content, topped off with a multi vitamin or two.I'm not impressed with her petdiets.com at all.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: shorthair

    I wish Dr Remillard would use some of that expertise to actually put together some decent home made diets.The recipes I've seen of her doing are not impressive at all, basically engineered to work just like kibble. A source of protein, fats and carbs with no thought to their nutrient content, topped off with a multi vitamin or two.I'm not impressed with her petdiets.com at all.


    So you want a diet that looks pretty on paper, instead of meeting the nutritional needs of your pet?
    • Puppy
    A perfectly healthy well balanced diet can be made using the correct selections of foods themselves, instead of just putting together a diet of a certain percent of carbs, protein, etc with no thought to what they contain, and just popping a multi to cover anything missed.
    Why not use fresh, healthy foods themselves, correctly selected for their different nutrient contents?
    It takes more work to figure everything out on a spreadsheet, but I much prefer diets that use foods themselves to supply the correct nutrients when possible.Meets the dogs needs just as well as her diets do, and much more naturally.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Here is her philosophy on diet:

    [linkhttp://www.petdiets.com/faqs/display_faq.asp?ID=589]http://www.petdiets.com/faqs/display_faq.asp?ID=589[/link]

    To summarize some points I do not agree with:

    Any food that has passed AAFCO trials is good for your dog

    It is ok to feed your dog garbage as long as it does "fine" (and she actually states the word garbage)

    The first ingredient in an ingredient list should be a grain, not a protein

    Nutrition is made up of nothing but percentages, doesn't matter what you feed as long as it fits neatly into these percentages, even if it is literally garbage

    Small companies provide nothing to the consumer but slick marketing tactics, while the big giants only care about your dog and do no such thing, and small companies are completely incapable of providing a nutrionally complete diet. (then again she is paid a nice chunk of change by the big companies so I can see where that opinion is coming from.)



    And yes, this woman actually makes these points in her "answer".  Not only does she make these points, she is also staunchly against feeding raw food of any kind, including rmb's, suggesting that dogs are no different than humans in their sensitivity to bacteria.  Of course she ingnores the fact that dogs regularly eat poop and garbage! 
     
    She only advocates feeding only the brands from Hill's (Colgate Palmolive), Iams (Procter and Gamble), Purina (Nestle) and ;Pedigree (M&M Mars) - the big fat four