Hubby Wonders....

That sounds like it was an interesting conversation.  Wish I'd been there. [] My DH says the same thing.  When he was growing up, the dogs all pretty much stayed outside.  If the weather was bad, the ones that had good sense went into the barn - dogs just did not come in the house. They pretty much lived on table scraps and I don't think they ever saw a vet.  Then again, maybe because they did stay outside, nobody noticed all the little things we notice today. There could have  been any number of things that went unseen or just got chalked up to old age.
 
Joyce

I think the about things like that all the time. I grew up out on the farm with outside farm dogs. They ate whatever was leftover from the table (including cooked bones) and usually had a bowl of the cheapest dog food from the feed store to snack on inbetween. Then, of course there were dead baby pigs, chicken parts when grandma butchered, mice, rats, whatever they could scavenge. They were covered in fleas and ticks unless grandma remembered to dust them with Sevin when she dusted the garden. I have no idea how long they lived, but they definitely didn't have allergies. I would have noticed during the hours I spent picking ticks (it was fun to throw them in the coop and watch the chickens fight over them - this was before cable and there was only one broadcast station!)

Were those dogs unhappy, neglected, suffering? Probably by some people's standards. But I do know NONE of those dogs barked incessantly, acted aggressively, got separation anxiety, or even jumped on people. They would happily follow us around the farm as we did chores. They'd put up with my sister, brother & cousins playing house with them in the hay loft. They'd sit next to us for hours when we went fishing. A ride to the other farm in the back of the pickup truck was better than Christmas to them - and almost as great for us kids.

Sam was my favorite. He was a huge Dobie that "came with" the farm my uncle rented. He was an outside dog and lived to be about 13 years old with just the occasional rabies shot when the vet was out for a farm call. His diet was primarily dead baby pigs from the farrowing house. He had dog food, just preferred pork. He had a nice glossy black coat that occasionally got greasy when he slept on the concrete garage floor to stay cool. Was it an ideal life? As far as Sam was concerned, I believe so. He had food to eat, a farm to "guard" and a warm place to sleep in the barn with the cats & horses. What more could a dog want?

I just try to remember that their dogs, not people. Dogs don't doesn't sit around wondering what they'd do if they won the lottery or how the most recent tax laws will affect their standard of living. They don't care if the omega fatty acids in their food is at the proper ratio or if they'll live to be 15.

I guess what drew his attention were all the ingredient lists, the talk of nutirtionist doing recipes and talking about dogs needing this, that and the other.  like me, he gew up with outside dogs  Our were English Setters and pointers, with few exceptions they lived past life expectancy and with our large family, no left overs,(except bones) so they only got the purina dog chow.  We never had any with hot spots and raw spots due to chewing or scratching.  They got rabies and distemper vax and that was it.  We used kind of yellow flea powder on them that didn't really work, but it was all we knew about at the time.
 
Hubby's family dogs were the same, only got some scraps---small family.  he also said they never had the allergies, etc, that we see and hear of today.He is all for my cooking for the dogs to add to their kibble.  he also agrees with the joint sups for the older ones. 
 
But he really has a point.  Our kayCee has allergies, the dog next door (that is dying from heartworms0 and the the one they lost a little over a year ago (to heart worms), two of the 3 dogs across the street, and many dogs belonging to people at our church have allergies.  Why do so many have to take allergy shots these days in order to keep from having raw bleeding sores or feet, messed up ears and eyes, etc...things we rarely saw, if at all, 40-50 years ago.
 
 

in humans, the development of allergies has been linked to, yes, being too clean!  So your dog who lives inside and gets bathed and never gets to run around in the real world getting filthy as a pup is being set up for allergies.
 
Allergies are also linked to lack of omega-3 fatty acids. Commercial dog foods are highly deficient in omega-fatty acids. Lots of folks nowadays think it's unhealthy to supplement dog's diets with table scraps or "people food", so their dogs are horribly deficient in omega-3's.

This has been a topic of discussion on the Border Collie groups off and on. It's a fact that still overseas, these hard working dogs are fed farm scraps, table scraps, chicken mash, and whatever else they can pick up. It's also a fact that some go blind from retinal scarring caused by insufficient nutrition. However, other than that, the vast majority live long, healthy, very active lives.

I think the answer is simple - survival of the fittest. Our pets today don't undergo the hard knock lives that their predecessors did, and each generation gets a little "softer." Breeders don't cull dogs just because they have allergies, or require a little bit better food to keep condition, or have to have supplements to keep their skin and coat in top shape.

The other thing is increased pollution and contamination of the food supply has a lot to do with it, I'm sure. The soil just isn't as fertile as it was, and the demands of the public for cheap food have made it impossible for farmers to avoid genetic engineering of plants and hormonal and antibiotic augmentation of livestock.

With regard to OFAs, the biggest reason our food is deficient in these is that we are growing our livestock too quickly. I tell my dog food customers to select the oldest animals for their dogs, as they are the highest in OFAs and GAGs (joint lubricants).

Edited for formatting error. [8|]

ORIGINAL: jenhuedepohl

They don't care if the omega fatty acids in their food is at the proper ratio or if they'll live to be 15.

Best sentence I've read i a long time!

I wonder myself if all the things people do for their dogs (diet micro-management, excessive training, etc) is really in the dogs best interests, or ours.  When does the dog get to just be a dog?

Have you been to a Petco or Petsmart on a Saturday lately?  I really don't think that excessive training is a problem among the majority of dog owners. []

too true sillysally.
 
I personally think "lack of exercise" is the number one health problem in the dogs in my area. Dog spends 20+ hours a day in the crate, if lucky gets a 15 -minute leash walk, and that's it. I don't care what you feed that dog, it's not going to be healthy.
The second problem is "bad breeding". Labs are a dime a dozen around here, and whoever is breeding them should be put in jail. Giant non-retrieving aggressive unhealthy travesties of labs. No matter what you feed these dogs, they aren't going to be healthy.

I've wondered, too, about the lack of "variety" in a house dog's life. They don't generally eat a wide variety of foods - and the foods they do eat are generally processed to the point of sterility no there is no exposure to the variety of non-pathogenic bacterias and viruses that they would get in nature. Even the raw diets that get fed generally come from "human quality" super-clean sources.

I like the Dr. Dean Edell's little analagy/hypothesis that exposure to non-pathogenic (non-illness-causing) bugs gives our immune system a way to "exercise" or "practice" so that when pathogenic (illness causing) bugs are around we can fight them off more efficiently. When we remove a significant range of germs then our immune system doesn't have anything to do and overreacts to other things like alleregns. Or, as my mother-in-law (who happens to be a neat-freak in the house) simply puts it - "Kids need at least half a cup of dirt a day to stay healthy!"

I think over vaccinating also plays a role in all of the immunodeficiency problems and allergies that dogs have nowadays. Most people used to just do rabies/distemper. I think the myriad of things people vaccinate for, and the vets who push yearly boosters for all dogs, have alot to do with the increased health problems we see today.

I wonder how much may be passed to puppies not just through genetics, but through the bitch's milk. Breastfeeding in humans is associated with reduced risk of allergies. There are antibodies that are transferred and some speculation that the exposure of the baby's immune system to broken down components of what the mother eats pevents food allergies from developing. In other words - if the puppy's aren't getting antibodies and exposure to potential allergens from a mother with an abnormal immune system they may have a disadantage.

I think it is the total combination.  Mine aren't crated, but do spend a lot of time in the house--and a lot of time outside running up and down the fence after squirrels on the power line over our back fence, chasing each other, etc.  My feet are so bad i do not walk them near enough....Buck gets the most because he is the oldest and doesn't run and play as much as KayCee and Honey do.
 
And the same applies to children.  There are so many around here that are over weight, from a few pounds to ones that look like the old toy weebles--you know, wobble but don't fall down.  You rarely see them outside, mostly insides with fingers on keyboard playing computer games or on a control playing games on TV.  My next doornight on one side has one thin son and one sloppy fat son.  I know she does cook good balanced meals for them.  The younger one is always outside doing something, rarely see the older one.  She has even taken him to the doctor and nothing wrong except lack of exercise and to much food...even the good food.
 
I  think the ladies on the boat the other night and my hubby is really right--dogs WERE healtheir a few years ago than today.  NOBODY gave vitamins, didn't even think about it.  Dogs were not bathed once a week, with bows put in hair and toenails painted--you would have been laughed out of my little community had you done something like that.  Also they did not get a multitude of vax and other "preventatives"  Perhaps many died of heartworms before their time because nothing was known about heartworms.  That could account of younger dogs dying.  I have no idea how long they have been around. 
 
He just got me to thinking.

Great topic!  All the posts are hitting the nail on the head IMO.  The more humans are involved with our micro-managing of everything, lack of exercise (much like ourselves), being totally anal over diet and "creature comforts" is making our domestic dogs weaker.  I believe in teh survival of the fittest as well, and poor breeding, and overly humanizing our dogs can't be good for them!
 
Even in training, we micro manage everything.  We stress over whether our dogs will still "like us" if we correct them, or will their self esteems be destroyed beyond repair for same correction.  It's silly to me.  This is the exact same logic that is turning out kids that have no respect for authority, are lazy, don't exercise and eat crappy diets!  Even with ALL the activities some people stick their kids in, kids are still getting more and more obese.  Things that make me go hmmmmmmm..............
 
Someone said it above about letting a dog be a dog and maybe the humans should bow out a little bit to allow for that luxury! 

That is a good topic!
Since I posted a link to this thread in one of the training sections, I should post one for "Cultural Differences" -http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=271694 ... Both threads are related - we are posing the same basic questions about well being of our dogs...

He-he... There is an interesting parallel between this thread and " Hubby Wonders...."

http://forum.dog.com/asp/tm.asp?m=296484

See the connection?

I grew up out on the farm with outside farm dogs. They ate whatever was leftover from the table (including cooked bones) and usually had a bowl of the cheapest dog food from the feed store to snack on inbetween. Then, of course there were dead baby pigs, chicken parts when grandma butchered, mice, rats, whatever they could scavenge. They were covered in fleas and ticks unless grandma remembered to dust them with Sevin when she dusted the garden.
Were those dogs unhappy, neglected, suffering? Probably by some people's standards. But I do know NONE of those dogs barked incessantly, acted aggressively, got separation anxiety, or even jumped on people. They would happily follow us around the farm as we did chores...

And the same applies to children. There are so many around here that are over weight, from a few pounds to ones that look like the old toy weebles--you know, wobble but don't fall down. You rarely see them outside, mostly insides with fingers on keyboard playing computer games or on a control playing games on TV.

...dogs WERE healtheir a few years ago than today. NOBODY gave vitamins, didn't even think about it. Dogs were not bathed once a week, with bows put in hair and toenails painted--you would have been laughed out of my little community had you done something like that.

Etc.