Another Timberwolf/Diamond Thread

quote:

ORIGINAL: papillon806

I don't think people should turn off of a product if they haven't had any problems with it themselves...

....and the people who did....nothing bad happend to their dogs, right?

 
I never had a problem with vioxx, but I sure wouldn't take it again.    BUT it all depends what the problem is with other things.  I would not stop using XXX because my  neighbor's daughter broke out because she was allergic to the peanutbutter that was in it, or stop useing ZZZ because my brother's dog had a reaction because he was allergic to lamb, etc, etc. 
 
I will not give greenies to my dogs because so many did have problems with undigested chunks in the digestive system causing death or requring surgery.  Chances are my dogs could eat them and not have a problem one.  But I am not taking a chance.  Many people took their dogs off proheart6--despite never having a problem--when they found out about all the ones that did.  Others never started their dogs on it for that reason.
 
To me it all depends on what the problem is, and under what circumstances did it occur, how much you believe--or do not believe--in a product,  is it the ONLY product in that line that works for your dog (or for you when it comes to human things).

I do find it interesting that Mark Brinkmann, COO of Diamond, will answer questions about Timberwolf Organics but Mark Heyward, President of Timberwolf Organics won't.

But Sharon said that TO was not owned by Diamond. How could she be wrong?
 
Seriously, though, I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt and I feel sorry that Sharon and others were misled or misinformed.
 
And these things could happen to companies, especially small ones basically using time-share processing, so to speak.
 
I wasn't particularly in the market to get TO or Diamond. I guess I'm conservative and will stick with the companies that have a long track record of no problems. And, it seems, more companies are providing holistic blends for those that want that, as well as formulas that are meat or meat meal first and I certainly applaud that. To date, I've never heard of any qc problems with the food I feed or with the big names. I've only heard of anecdotal evidence, myself included, of a dog doing well on one brand of food but not so good on another brand.
 
Hopefully, Diamond can recover their place in the market and TO could improve it's customer service if it wants to survive in today's demanding marketplace of distributors and owners who care deeply about what their dogs eat.

    I don't think Diamond owns TO; TO just pays Diamond to make their food, as does Solid Gold. This is a reply to an e-mail that papillon806 sent to Solid Gold:
      
"Thank you for your inquiry,
Diamond makes our food in their Meta, MO and Lathrop, CA plants, not in the
South Carolina plant where the Aflatoxin issue happened. They manufacture to
our specifications and quality standards and the food is tested thoroughly
before and after processing to ensure quality and safety.
The food is tested before and after manufacture by Diamond and by Solid Gold
independently.
Many dog food companies will employ a third party to manufacture their food
as it is cost prohibitive for small companies such as ours to own and
operate a mill.

Best regards,
Solid Gold "
 
Sharon also said that they owned their own plant and it is APHIS certified, and this is a quote from TO's site :
 
    "   Also, our plant is one of the few plants that is APHIS (Agricultural Plant Health Inspection Service) certified or the newer tougher Category III level certified. "
 
  I don't know if that means the Diamond plant where their food is made is APHIS certified, but TO said,"our plant", as if it belongs to them.
 
 

I've just been digging around on Google trying to find out some information about APHIS certified plants.  I did find this interesting info though.  THere are 1290 licenced feed mills in the US and 6-8000 UNlicensed ones !  I can only find information on FCI certification, level 1 and level 2.  So I am assuming that APHIS is the level 3 certification which is identified as manufacturing "low risk" feed products to the EU.

According to Regulation (EC) 1774, 2002, only products or ingredients defined as "Category 3" materials are eligible for export to the EU. The facilities are required to be dedicated to either be completely dedicated or to have dedicated equipment lines.

Facilities producing the following products must be either totally dedicated to Category 3 or must use dedicated lines and equipment.  Processed animal protein, ( rendered protein ); gel bone; blood products for use as feed; rendered fats; hydrolyzed protein; dicalcium and tricalcium phosphate; and inedible egg products.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/food/biosafety/animalbyproducts/by_products_report_en.pdf
[linkhttp://useu.usmission.gov/agri/petfood.html]http://useu.usmission.gov/agri/petfood.html[/link]

Ok...here's the low down on Cat 3 plants :

All ingredients used for the manufacture of petfood have to be "fit for human consumption" according to EU standards. Only animals declared healthy after ante- and post -mortem examiniation qualify as ingredients for pet food. Fallen stock is banned.

Pet food and rendering plants have to be registered and approved by the "third country competent authority" , in this case , APHIS , as complying with EU requirements. EU requirements included regular inspection by the competent authority , mandatory record keeping and salmonella and enterobacteriacea testing.
Only products from companies on the approved establishments list can pass border patrol into the EU.

Plants manufacturing pet food are not allowed to manufactur and store animal by-products that do not fit the EU bill for "pet food"

Raw pet food has to be labeled " pet food only"

Raw material for the manufacture of pet food has to be marked permanently by charcoal .

All US pet food certificates have to be certified that Any Specified Risk Materials have been removed.

Labeling :  All packaging must contain:
Description of product and category of animal for which the petfood is intended.
Directions for proper use
Listing of all ingredients including amount contained or decending order by weight.
Listing of additives
Claims
Declaration of analytical constituents
Name of business  or person responsible for information on label
Container contents
Shelf life
Batch Reference number


Here is a great petfood industry website loaded with tons of info:
[linkhttp://www.wattnet.com/newsletters/Pet/htm/Sep062005.htm]http://www.wattnet.com/newsletters/Pet/htm/Sep062005.htm[/link]


I STILL cannot find a list of Cat 3 certfied plants

Well, hate to say I told you so, but I told you so…there is no hiding from a generic bag.
I betcha they had to dump a bunch of product just to be on the safe side for fear of potential cross-contamination, and in doing so the bag supplier got caught short handed.
That#%92s what the better companies should do, not take chance if there is a potential problem.

ORIGINAL: papillon806

 I guess you could say that I feel bad for TO, and I really advocate them because my dog has done better on their food than any others.  Is everybody really going to stop buying TO products because of this?? []   

 
I intend to keep using TO. 
 
OTOH, I used to have pit bulls and fed them Diamond, because that is what their breeder fed.  If I was still feeding Diamond, I probably would change.

Although I had to wait 3 weeks for my TO shipment, and it never answered my inquiries, I do give it credit for sending me an extra 4 lbs of food free of charge!  I should be starting on it this weekend - we'll see how the boys like it.
 
As to being maufactured at a Diamond plant,  if Solid Gold has been doing it without problem, then I am reassured.

As I stated in another thread, I ordered from TO several weeks ago for the first time. They sent an email confirming the order, sent an email when it was shipped out, and regular delivery took about 5-6 days. It was a totally smooth order.
My dog loves the food.
I will admit to being nervous about feeding it to him now..... and I probably won't buy it again because of all I keep reading on this forum. Ditto Solid Gold. Is there any dog food that was not made in a Diamond plant? [sm=uhoh.gif]
I don't want my dog to eat anything that was near a Diamond plant. [:'(]
 
 
And while I'm blabbing away here, does anyone know where Evo and Innova is made? Thanks in advance.

And while I'm blabbing away here, does anyone know where Evo and Innova is made? Thanks in advance.

 
Hi - yes , check this out - [linkhttp://www.belfield.com/home.html]http://www.belfield.com/home.html[/link]
 
Very impressive.
 
I just wish my dogs tolerated the foods that Natura makes. The only thing they do well on so far are the Cal. Nat. Lamb biscuits and the Cal.Nat.Lamb canned.
I am always willing to try them again now and then.  Waiting for the "red meat" formula to come out soon.

sarah_b, thanks for the link.
This article scared the you-know-what out of me:[]
 
[linkhttp://www.belfield.com/article3.html]http://www.belfield.com/article3.html[/link]

noblewoman; This is what Solid Gold had to say about their products being manufactured in a Diamond plant:
     
"Thank you for your inquiry,
Diamond makes our food in their Meta, MO and Lathrop, CA plants, not in the
South Carolina plant where the Aflatoxin issue happened. They manufacture to
our specifications and quality standards and the food is tested thoroughly
before and after processing to ensure quality and safety.
The food is tested before and after manufacture by Diamond and by Solid Gold
independently.
Many dog food companies will employ a third party to manufacture their food
as it is cost prohibitive for small companies such as ours to own and
operate a mill.

Best regards,
Solid Gold "
 
 It should be perfectly safe to feed Solid Gold if they are supervising the production and testing of their food. I have never heard of the kinds of problems with Solid Gold that people are having with TO. Natural Balance is also made by Diamond. I had started feeding my dog TO but stopped after all the issues about the company became known, first on the old forum and now here. Also, TO says on their site that they have an APHIS certified plant:
 
 " Also, our plant is one of the few plants that is APHIS (Agricultural Plant Health Inspection Service) certified or the newer tougher Category III level certified."
 
  This is confusing : if their food is made in a Diamond plant, it would have to be APHIS certified for this statement to be true. The statement "our plant" implies that TO has it's own plant, which we know is not the case. One of the ingredients that TO uses in some of their formulas is salmon. Their site has a listing of ingredients they use but fails to elaborate on many of them:
 
       [linkg=ste_ingredients]http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&g=ste_ingredients[/link]>http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&g=ste_ingredients]http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&g=ste_ingredients[/link]
 
 I would like to know if their salmon is farm raised or wild caught because of the pesticides in farm raised salmon, but there is no information available about it on their site. I would also like to know if their salmon is preserved with ethoxyquin or naturally preserved, but can't find the answer to that either. Unless they have a permit from the USDA and the Department of Transportation, they have to use ethoxyquin to preserve their salmon as per U.S. Coast Guard regulations.  If they are using the name "Organics" for their company one should expect all of their ingredients to be free of pesticides and chemical preservatives.

From the Myths & Misconceptions page...

None of my formulas contain 4D animals, simple (read white) carbohydrates, dextrose or other sugars for palatability enhancement, soy, BHT, BHA or Ethoxyquin.

http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F336071&rnd=2057989&rrc=N&affl=&cip=68.97.149.110&act=&aff=&pg=ste_myths

HTH, it would be nice to be able to call or e-mail someone and ask all our questions though.

I would also like to know if their salmon is preserved with ethoxyquin or naturally preserved, but can't find the answer to that either. Unless they have a permit from the USDA and the Department of Transportation, they have to use ethoxyquin to preserve their salmon as per U.S. Coast Guard regulations. If they are using the name "Organics" for their company one should expect all of their ingredients to be free of pesticides and chemical preservatives.

 
[linkg=ste_myths]http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&g=ste_myths[/link]>http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&g=ste_myths]http://www.timberwolforganics.com/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?&g=ste_myths[/link]
 
... None of my formulas contain 4D animals, simple (read white) carbohydrates, dextrose or other sugars for palatability enhancement, soy, BHT, BHA or Ethoxyquin. ...
 
... For example, our lamb meal is imported from New Zealand and is a special low ash high protein (8% ash, 70% protein) lamb meal that we have classified and most of the bone is filtered out (all lamb, chicken, beef meals contain a lot of bone because it is made from what is left over from cutting away steaks or boneless chicken breast for example). It is the most expensive and probably the best lamb meal in the country as it is made from the organs and contains a lot of blood which gives it a very complete amino acid profile. Is it human grade? Come on class, I'm listening? Most lamb meals are high in ash and are low (50%) in protein. We searched six different suppliers before finding my current suppliers for chicken meal and for lamb meal. ...
 
I'd say if they're this picky about their other meals, it's highly doubtful they'd ever use farm raised salmon...especially seeing as they produce some of the best salmon oil to be found anywhere and brag about how it's wild salmon fished off the coast of Iceland and Greenland . " Our pure Wild Salmon Oil comes from wild salmon caught in the cold deep waters of the North Atlantic off the coasts of Iceland and Greenland. "
 
They also have this to say about farm raised salmon :
... Also, most of the commercially available fish oil comes from farmed salmon. To make them grow as well as their wild cousins and to prevent disease in their crowded quarters, farmed salmon are given hormones and antibiotics. Extruded fish food is made from animal and fish by-products and corn instead of live plankton, krill and algae that wild fish dine on. This affects the quality of those essential Omega-3 fatty acids we need for health. Wild fish, swimming in the deep, pristine Atlantic waters will contain high quality Omega-3 fatty acids, with no antibiotic or hormone residues. ...
 
I sincerely doubt they would use farm raised salmon in their food.  One thing this company does NOT seem to do is use any cheap ingredients. They mention in the formula descriptions that they use cold water fish. That means it's not  farm raised.
 
.... Black Forest Formula™ also contains fresh venison meat and organs, fresh seeds, cold water fish and gourmet nut oils such as walnut oil, and herbs and fruits such as parsley, thyme, basil, fenugreek, anise seed, blueberries, cranberries, pears and mint that are used to assist in digestion and for their anti - oxidant properties. ...
 
So far they go out of their way on the Salmon oil , on the lamb meal, importing the venison, elk and bison from Australia because the conditions for raising them are so much stricter there and they have to be open range and grain fed, they go to Ireland to get their oats because they're some of the best in the world.  Does it sound like this company would then go and use farm raised fish ??

 Thanks Asthefurflies,  []  I missed the information you have.

"  So far they go out of their way on the Salmon oil , on the lamb meal, importing the venison, elk and bison from Australia because the conditions for raising them are so much stricter there and they have to be open range and grain fed, they go to Ireland to get their oats because they're some of the best in the world.  Does it sound like this company would then go and use farm raised fish ?? "

  No, it doesn't, and I agree that they probably use wild salmon. 

      " None of my formulas contain 4D animals, simple (read white) carbohydrates, dextrose or other sugars for palatability enhancement, soy, BHT, BHA or Ethoxyquin."

Nutro says on their site that Ultra dog is preserved without chemical preservatives like ethoxyquin;
  [linkhttp://www.ultraholistic.com/ingredients.shtml]http://www.ultraholistic.com/ingredients.shtml[/link]

  However, they import the salmon meal they use from Chile and it is preserved with ethoxyquin. As I said before, unless TO has the permits I mentioned the salmon meal they use has to be preserved with ethoxyquin:

   [linkhttp://www.woodhavenlabs.com/fishmeal.html]http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/fishmeal.html[/link]

   I agree that it appears that they go out of their way to use high quality ingredients, but there is no way to tell for certain whether or not ethoxyquin is in the salmon meal, and they did not respond to my e-mail when I asked them about it and if I don't know for certain, I won't use their foods with salmon. Also, it doesn't matter to me how good the ingredients in their food are if good quality control practices aren't in place for the manufacturing process, and with all the issues that have been brought up such as bags with no expiration date, bags containing more than one type of kibble, a bag that had staples in the food, generic bags with labels stuck on them, bags labeled cat food which had dog food in them, etc., I am very reluctant to have faith in the way their food is made.