Dog Community

Posted : 1/30/2007 7:47:18 PM

ORIGINAL: abbysdad

How come Animal Plasma is good and Animal Fat is bad???

Here's a description and nutrient profile:

http://www.merricks.com/mp722.htm

Its just an all around excellent food source if you can get past where it comes from. If you think probiotics and "enzymes" (don't get me started) make a food healthier, check the substantial amounts of research on this stuff. They're actually considering it as a replacement feed additive for antibiotics in pigs because it decreases shedding of bacteria.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15217004&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15216995&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12772849&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_DocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12647965&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Margaret Tyler

Posted : 1/30/2007 7:53:41 PM

ORIGINAL: papillon806

I did want to add why I do not like Nature's Logic. Their company states: (from their site) "Of the AAFCO required vitamins and minerals, 19 out of 23 exceeded the AAFCO minimum requirements. One vitamin found naturally in small amounts in the diet but not meeting the AAFCO minimum requirement was Vitamin D. The AAFCO minimum level is 500 IU/kg which would be hard to meet with any food. Nature's Logic does not intend to ever use chemically synthesize Vitamin D to meet this AAFCO nutrient profile for two reasons. The NRC, in its book, "Vitamin Tolerance of Animals”, plainly states that Vitamin D is not required in the diet if sufficient amounts of sunlight are received. Adequate sunlight results in the production of sufficient vitamin D from the skin - naturally. Nature never intended for animals or humans to consume chemically synthesized forms of Vitamin D, but nature did intend humans and animals to be exposed to sunlight. If one chooses not to expose their pets to some needed sunlight, the alternative is to risk the supplementing of chemically synthesized Vitamin D. Some of the hypervitaminosis (vitamin toxicity) associated with over exposure to chemically synthesized forms of vitamin D in dogs are hypercalcemia, cardiovascular and nephrocalcinosis and increased blood pressure. Isn't sunlight better?"

There was a study done with dogs a while back regarding whether or not dogs needed calcium intake in the diet or if they could get sufficient amounts from the sun.

This is snip's from the study as it was a large one...if you would like me to attach the whole thing, I will be happy to do so if it will help:

Vitamin D3 metabolism in dogs

H. A. W. Hazewinkel[linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#m4.cor*][/link], [email=h.a.w.hazewinkel@vet.uu.nl][/email] and M. A. Tryfonidou

Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, Yalelaan 8, 3584 CM, Utrecht, The Netherlands

1. Introduction

The healing of rickets, a skeletal disease which appeared in epidemic proportions during the urbanization and industrialization of UK in the early 1900s, was first described by [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib33]Mellanby (191[/link] in dogs. He fed dogs on oatmeal until they developed clinical and radiological signs of rickets similar to rickets in children: curved bones, thin cortices and enlarged growth plates. The skeletal changes could be prevented and cured by cod liver oil, which contained a substance later known as vitamin D (vitD) ( [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib32]McCollum et al., 1922[/link]). An independent study revealed that sunlight could prevent rickets in children ( [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib25]Huldshinsky, 1919[/link]) and cure rickets in goats ( [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib51]Steenbock and Hart, 1913[/link]). These observations were the impetus for studies on the involvement of vitD in calcium (Ca) metabolism and skeletal development in different species. Amphibians, reptiles, and birds are believed to synthesize sufficient cholecalciferol (vitD3) in their skin under the influence of ultraviolet light ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib23]Holick, 1990[/link]). Both herbivores and omnivores synthesize vitD3 in their skin during the summer and utilize ergocalciferol (vitD2) or vitD3 from feed the rest of the year ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib23]Holick, 1990[/link]). However, carnivores such as the domestic dog and cat are solely dependent on oral intake to meet their vitD3 requirement ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib24]How[/link] and [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib34]Morris[/link]). Both natural food and commercially available complete dog food contain sufficient vitD3 to fulfill a dog's vitD3 requirement ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#tbl1]Table 1[/link]) ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib38]NRC[/link] and [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib1]AAFCO[/link]). Therefore in domesticated dogs rickets is only seen under extreme circumstances, such as a strict vegetarian ration, biliary atresia, and inborn errors of vitD3 metabolism ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib26]Johnson[/link]; [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib28]Kealy[/link] and [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib48]Schulze[/link]).

4. Discussion

Dogs are fully dependent on their dietary intake of vitD3 since they are not able to synthesize vitD3 in their skin under the influence of ultraviolet light ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib18]Hazewinkel[/link] and [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib24]How[/link]). Nevertheless, rickets is rare in dogs, due to the presence of vitD3 in natural foods and commercially available balanced dog foods ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib27]Kallfelz[/link] and [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib28]Kealy[/link]). VitD3-metabolites play a crucial role in active Ca absorption and skeletal mineralization, especially when there is an extremely low dietary mineral content ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib16]Harrison and Harrison, 1942[/link]). In study I, we demonstrated however that young dogs may develop radiological and histological signs of rickets even though the mineral content of their food meets the requirements ( [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib38]NRC, 1974[/link]), and plasma Ca and P concentrations do not differ from control values. The defective mineralization of both newly formed osteoid and cartilage limits the loss of extracellular Ca, thus keeping plasma Ca concentrations within biological safe margins under the influence of high plasma PTH concentrations.

Large- and small-breed dogs with dietary Ca deficiency had significantly increased plasma 1,25(OH)2D3 concentrations together with hyperparathyroidism. Because of a decreased Ca intake, hyperparathyroidism develops, resulting in the stimulation of the 1α-hydroxylase and thus increased 1,25(OH)2D3 synthesis. If there is a negative Ca balance, 1α-hydroxylation occurs at the expense of 24-hydroxylation ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib22]Henry, 1997[/link]). Active Ca absorption is stimulated by 1,25(OH)2D3 by the induction of Ca-binding proteins in intestinal cells, which increases the efficiency of Ca absorption ** ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib55]Wasserman and Fullmer, 1995[/link]). Metabolic studies with 45Ca as a tracer have revealed that the fraction of Ca absorbed from food increases from approximately 45% in dogs raised on diet containing 1.1% Ca to more than 95% in large- or small-breed pups raised on a Ca-deficient diet (with 0.55 and 0.05% Ca, respectively) ([linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib20]Hazewinkel[/link] and [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib35]Nap[/link]). Despite the increase in fractional Ca absorption, severe osteoporosis was seen in both large- and small-breed dogs raised on a Ca-deficient diet due to hyperparathyroidism which increased osteoclasia ( [linkhttp://www.sciencedirect.com.libproxy.lib.unc.edu/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3G-471W39S-1&_user=130907&_coverDate=11%2F29%2F2002&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000004198&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=130907&md5=12acaffcaf32c8d82ea08d0cc7a83d39#bib31]Malluche et al., 1986[/link]).

**Showing that this effected nutrient absorption in the intestines

I sent this to Nature's Logic about 4 months ago and have yet to get a response.....

Not any more. They have legally met AFFCO guidelines.

Margaret Tyler

Posted : 1/30/2007 8:00:04 PM

ORIGINAL: papillon806

You have to regard any information on a commercial website with a grain of salt ( more like a bucket).

Quoted for truth []

I wanted to add that I just emailed Nature's Logic to see if they could send me a complete nutrient analysis of the food (kind of like the ones that Nature's Variety has on their site under every product). I'd be interested to see if they will send it, or if they've even analyzed it.

I know the owner of Nature's Logic. His name is Scott Freeman. He is also the nutritionalist that helped create NV and Wysong. He left to start his own company, as he did not believe in synthetic vitamins.

At one time I had a client who was a vet. She needed to know the copper levels on the lamb and the amount of mercury in the montormorillonite (she's a wierdo) anyways he answered me back within the day.

As for antibiotics and probiotics in the food. I believe they are there to help the dog absorb the whole food ingredients, as they are not using synthetic vitamins. I'm not a vet or a nutritionalist, but I from experience, I can say that my dog digests this food better than anything else. At one time I thought that he was intolerant to chicken, but I can feed him NL's chicken without a problem.

papillon806

Posted : 1/30/2007 8:23:20 PM

Not any more. They have legally met AFFCO guidelines.

Is there a reason they haven't stated this on the site and/or why it still says for supplemental feeding only on the bags?

I am still hoping that they will send me the nutrient analysis as I am curious...maybe if you know him you can urge the matter. lol

chelsea_b

Posted : 1/30/2007 9:01:56 PM

I am still hoping that they will send me the nutrient analysis as I am curious...

Me too. If they respond, would you mind either posting it or PMing it to me?

papillon806

Posted : 1/30/2007 9:36:56 PM

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

I am still hoping that they will send me the nutrient analysis as I am curious...

Me too. If they respond, would you mind either posting it or PMing it to me?

No problem. I will probably post it if I have any comments on it, but if not I will be sure to PM it to you [

]

jennie_c_d

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:05:52 PM

He is also the nutritionalist that helped create NV and Wysong. He left to start his own company, as he did not believe in synthetic vitamins.

I called my friend, tonight, to tell her about this dog food company (before I read your post). I think that's pretty awesome, especially in a kibble. I hope that he has plans for premade raw foods in the works.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:09:58 PM

Oops[

] I just looked them up, and they DO have premade raw. I'll have to see if I can get someone around here to order some, for Teenie. Unfortunately, Emma can't have kelp, and that rules out most premades, for her.

Edie

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:21:45 PM

I saw a show about koala's that i think touched on Animal Plasma.If they find orphaned babies,sometimes still attached to their dead mother,they will extract the plasma from mom(must be dead to do this apparantly) and feed it to the baby,this almost guarantee's the baby will survive,but without it the chances would be slim to none. From what i can gather it's pretty potent,powerful stuff.

starsenchis

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:39:27 PM

[color=#000000]

[color=#cc6699][color=#000000]I saw a show about koala's that i think touched on Animal Plasma.If they find orphaned babies,sometimes still attached to their dead mother,they will extract the plasma from mom(must be dead to do this apparantly) and feed it to the baby,this almost guarantee's the baby will survive,but without it the chances would be slim to none. From what i can gather it's pretty potent,powerful stuff.
[/color]

[/color][/color]

The mother doesn't have to be dead, they just don't have a need to do this if she is alive unless she is refusing to nurse- it would work in that case, too. The plasma acts like colostrum and gives the newborn immunities towards illnesses. The same thing can be done with dogs if the mother refuses to nurse or dies- blood is taken, spun down with an anticoagulation agent and given to the newborn puppies. There is even a company called Hemopet run by Jean Dodd that sells fresh frozen plasma from universal blood type donors that can be used for this same purpose.

As far as the animal plasma that has water removed and is contained in kibble, I have no idea if that still has any protective agents in it, but my guess is no. It still might be a good source of nutrients...

Misskiwi67

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:45:17 PM

ORIGINAL: starsenchis
As far as the animal plasma that has water removed and is contained in kibble, I have no idea if that still has any protective agents in it, but my guess is no. It still might be a good source of nutrients...

Read the studies... all of them are on spray-dried plasma, the exact same thing as what is found in pet foods...

ottoluv

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:57:08 PM

Plasma is just blood with the red cells spun out. Still has good protein like albumin, THBP, etc

For your reading pleasure....(for some reason my computer wouldn't let me open your links misskiwi, I think it's upset at me) I'm sure this is what you already posted though in case anyone had the same problem)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15216995&dopt=Abstract

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/83/10/2414

jennie_c_d

Posted : 1/30/2007 10:59:24 PM

The plasma acts like colostrum and gives the newborn immunities towards illnesses.

So, the plasma in the dog food could potentially have the same effect as feeding colostrum to the dogs? Good immune stuff?

ottoluv

Posted : 1/30/2007 11:01:55 PM

So, the plasma in the dog food could potentially have the same effect as feeding colostrum to the dogs? Good immune stuff?

Nope, haven't figured out how to give oral immunoglobulins yet

If you could bottle those you would be rich rich rich!!! We'd give them to all the premie babies too

IgA is atually in colostrom also, which is not found in plasma at all only IgG and IgM...

EDIT: Sorry, I'm sleep deprived, I couldn't even understand what I wrote ha ha

Ok, EDIT 2: this little kitty study shows you can give some immunity by givein intravenous plasma to colostrum deprived kittens, OT kinda but if anyone is interested
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16600652&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum
2nd study shows we are working on it jennie

but with colostrum itself not plasma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16238582&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_DocSum

cc431

Posted : 1/30/2007 11:12:42 PM

ORIGINAL: jamcony Both of these foods are very high quality. Which would you choose and why?....

Nice looking dog! In noticed in your profile NYC. I would go here: [linkhttp://nycpetsupply.com/home.php]http://nycpetsupply.com/home.php[/link] and browse the aisle that says "Abady"!

Charlie

Which food would you choose and why?