Small Breed Dog Food??

    • Gold Top Dog
    The one thing that I think is very clear cut is that artificial preservatives like BHA and BHT are definitely thought to cause cancer.


    That is not true, there is more evidence to support that it has protective properties. It is not just as simple as BHT bad, vitamin E good, remember in a large doses almost anything including most natural things can cause cancer.

    A very high dose of vitamin E (4% of the diet) enhances the incidence of chemically-induced tumor. (it is also a study that used very high doses of BHA and BHT, that is most often quoted as showing it causes cancer, and the cancer was in the forestomach of rats, rats are more susceptible to cancer than humans and humans don't have forestomachs.)






    An All-Natural Chemical Feast (from the New York Post)
      




    By [linkhttp://www.acsh.org/about/staffID.1/staff_detail.asp]Elizabeth M. Whelan, Sc.D., M.P.H.[/link]
    Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2006

    EDITORIAL
    Publication Date: November 23, 2006


    This article appeared in the Thanksgiving 2006 (November 23) issue of the [linkhttp://nypost.com/]New York Post[/link]:
    It's time to start the preparation for your multicourse serving of Thanksgiving chemicals.

    These days, people think the word "chemical" means "bad" -- and supermarkets are filled with foods that claim to be "chemical-free," "all-natural," and "purely organic." Almost daily, media stories tell us, for example, how a "carcinogen" known as acrylamide is showing up in French fries and other cooked high-starch foods.

    We're told that nitrite in bacon, saccharin in Sweet'N Low and PCB traces in farmed salmon are "carcinogens." The basis? They cause cancer in lab rats that have been fed enormous doses.

    So it may be a suprise to learn that even 100 percent natural foods -- including the holiday feast that will be coming your way shortly -- come replete with chemicals, including toxins (poisons) and carcinogens (cancer-causing chemicals), which average consumers would reject simply because they can't pronounce the names.

    Assume you start with a soup course, then munch down some crispy, natural vegetables, move on to a traditional stuffed bird with all the trimmings (washing it down with a few glasses of wine) and then top it all off with dessert and coffee. You will thus have consumed holiday helpings of various "carcinogens" (again, in lab animals fed high doses). Yes, Mother Nature makes "carcinogens," too:

    * hydrazines (mushroom soup)

    * aniline, caffeic acid, benzaldehyde, hydrogen peroxide, quercetin glycosides, and psoralens (your fresh vegetable salad)

    * heterocyclic amines, acrylamide, benzo(a)pyrene, ethyl carbamate, dihydrazines, d-limonene, safrole, and quercetin glycosides (roast turkey with stuffing)

    * benzene and heterocyclic amines (prime rib of beef with parsley sauce)

    * furfural, ethyl alcohol, allyl isothiocyanate (broccoli, potatoes, sweet potatoes)

    * coumarin, methyl eugenol, acetaldehyde, estragole and safrole (apple and pumpkin pies)

    * ethyl alcohol with ethyl carbamate (red and white wines)

    Then sit back and relax with some benzofuran, caffeic acid, catechol, l,2,5,6,-dibenz(a)anthra-cene with 4-methylcatechol (coffee).

    These carcinogens in your 100 percent natural holiday meal are accompanied by toxins -- popularly known as "poisons," also from Mother Nature. These include the solanine, arsenic and chaconine in potatoes; the hydrogen cyanide in lima beans; and the hallucinogenic compound myristicin found in nutmeg, black pepper and carrots.

    Now the goodnews: These foods are safe.

    Four observations are relevant here:

    1) When it comes to toxins, only the dose makes the poison. Substances -- like salt -- are potentially hazardous at high doses but perfectly safe when consumed at low doses like the trace amounts found in our foods.

    2) While you probably associate the word "carcinogen" with nasty-sounding synthetic chemicals like PCBs and dioxin, the fact is that the more we test naturally occurring chemicals, the more we find that they, too, cause cancer in lab animals.

    3) The increasing body of evidence documenting the carcinogenicity (in the lab) of common substances found in nature highlights the contradiction we Americans have created up to now in our regulatory approach to carcinogens: trying to purge our nation of synthetic carcinogens while turning a blind eye to the omnipresence of natural "carcinogens."

    4) While animal testing is an essential part of biomedical research, so is common sense. A rodent is not a little man. There is no scientific foundation to the assumption that if high-dose exposure to a chemical causes cancer in a rat or mouse, then a trace level of it must pose a human cancer risk.

    If we took a precautionary approach with all chemicals and assumed that a rodent carcinogen might pose a human cancer risk "so let's ban it just in case"), we'd have very little left to eat. (A radical solution to our nation's obesity problem!)

    The reality is that these trace levels of natural or synthetic chemicals in food or the environment pose no known human health hazard at all -- let alone a risk of cancer.

    So the next time you hear a self-appointed consumer advocate fret about the manmade "carcinogen du jour" and demand the government step in and "protect" us, remember, you just ingested a meal full of natural carcinogens without a care in the world and with no risk to your health.

    Pass the methyl eugenol! Bon Appetit!

    Elizabeth Whelan is president of the American Council on Science and Health ([linkhttp://acsh.org/]ACSH.org[/link], [linkhttp://healthfactsandfears.com/]HealthFactsAndFears.com[/link])


    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok...I tried Canidae, Innova, Nature's Variety, Natural Balance, Solid Gold, and California Natural canned....all with the same result...I think that was enough to tell me an all canned diet wasn't working for my dog...

    That's too bad for your little dog.  I find with most dogs when they have horrible digestive upsets from some foods they are either cannot tolerate one of the ingredients or they need the stool hardeners like beet pulp in the kibble...if the latter is true then there is a much deeper issue at hand that can lead to leaky gut syndrome.  I would be very concerned.  It's also just depends on the dogs...I've seen small dogs do well on a complete canned diet than those that do not...but, every dog is different.[:D]
     
    By the way papillon806, I do enjoy your posts and we can all learn from each other.  I have learned a few things from this thread as well.  I'm not being aurgumentive...just discussing what I have seen and what I believe...that doesn't make me any more right than what you believe.  If we all had the same thoughts it would be a very boring world.[:D]  
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: abbysdad

    The reality is that these trace levels of natural or synthetic chemicals in food or the environment pose no known human health hazard at all -- let alone a risk of cancer.

     
    That's just it - TRACE LEVELS post no risk.  We are not talking about trace levels that humans are exposed to, we are talking about our dogs ingesting these same chemicals with every single meal from birth until the day they die.  You are going to tell me there is no chance of a cumulative effect of years of daily internal exposure to substances that have been proven to cause tumors in animals?
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    By the way papillon806, I do enjoy your posts and we can all learn from each other. I have learned a few things from this thread as well. I'm not being aurgumentive...just discussing what I have seen and what I believe...that doesn't make me any more right than what you believe. If we all had the same thoughts it would be a very boring world.

     
      I agree; it's the different viewpoints that people bring to this forum that helps make it so interesting. I also learned some things from this thread too; in spite of the sparring, there have been some very informative posts. [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Cally01

    Vitamin E is used as a natural preservative for the fats the dog foods use.
     

     
    When you see the label, does it say "Vitamin E" or "Mixed Tocopherols"?? Mixed Tocopherols are NOT vitamin E, its just a source of vitamin E. Less than 1/6 of the Tocopherols are actually a vitamin, and they're writing that to distract you from the idea that there is a chemical preservative in the food. As far as I'm concerned, they're lying, and marketing the food as better because its "natural". I guess I just don't fall for that...
    • Gold Top Dog
    When you see the label, does it say "Vitamin E" or "Mixed Tocopherols"?? Mixed Tocopherols are NOT vitamin E, its just a source of vitamin E. Less than 1/6 of the Tocopherols are actually a vitamin, and they're writing that to distract you from the idea that there is a chemical preservative in the food. As far as I'm concerned, they're lying, and marketing the food as better because its "natural". I guess I just don't fall for that...


    Actually Misskiwi67 the mixed tocopherols  is more than one component of Vitamin E...the mixed means it contains not only the d-alpha, but gamma's and delta components as well...which makes it complete as it contains all the components....not just one[:D]

    If it stated jut d-alpha tocopherol then yes that is only one component of Vitamin E.  Vitamin E is made of 8 components...and to have the mixed is showing they are using natural vitamin E and not just one component.  This is another reason when I am buying Vitamin E I specifically look for mixed tocopherols because I don't want just one component of the vitamin.  the dl-alpha is the synthetic form of vitamin E which I steer clear of.

    So, I'm quite happy when I see mixed tocherols as this ;proves to me they are using a vitamin E complex. 
     
    Just to add, this is not just something "I" made up or heard...this explanation can be found in Dr Weil books and it explains it in a few other books I have at home.  So, I do have resources to back up what I discussed[:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Cally01

    Do you have any thoughts about the puppy formula vs. small dog formula thing?

    Lilea, is it top priority to feed a kibble diet? why not a canned diet? the canning process allows the food to be free of artificial and natural preservatives.  Plus, you could feed a few raw meals a week in place of the canned food...perhaps some RMB's to clean teeth etc.  My dogs get a variety of raw/kibble/canned/dehydrated/freeze dried.  Which brings to mind the NRG dehydrated foods are nice as well.  Since you soak them they are easy to eat or can be mixed with canned.  If I had a small dog I wouldn't feed kibble[:D]

    Actually I do give her a RMB once a week (it lasts the whole week).
    I also mix her meals half kibble and half canned.
    Does no canned dog food have a small breed formula?
    I also mix "people food" into her meals whenever we eat things appropriate for a dog's diet. (meats, veggies, potatoes, etc).
    Yes, it is important that she has kibble as part of her diet.
      
    I assumed canned varieties would have small breed formulas, not just kibble.  Anyone know?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Lilea

    ORIGINAL: Cally01

    Do you have any thoughts about the puppy formula vs. small dog formula thing?

    Lilea, is it top priority to feed a kibble diet? why not a canned diet? the canning process allows the food to be free of artificial and natural preservatives.  Plus, you could feed a few raw meals a week in place of the canned food...perhaps some RMB's to clean teeth etc.  My dogs get a variety of raw/kibble/canned/dehydrated/freeze dried.  Which brings to mind the NRG dehydrated foods are nice as well.  Since you soak them they are easy to eat or can be mixed with canned.  If I had a small dog I wouldn't feed kibble[:D]

    Actually I do give her a RMB once a week (it lasts the whole week).
    I also mix her meals half kibble and half canned.
    Does no canned dog food have a small breed formula?
    I also mix "people food" into her meals whenever we eat things appropriate for a dog's diet. (meats, veggies, potatoes, etc).
    Yes, it is important that she has kibble as part of her diet.
     
    I assumed canned varieties would have small breed formulas, not just kibble.  Anyone know?

     
    I have never seen a small breed canned formula.  Canned formulas are already higher in protein than kibble and bite size isn't an issue.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Have you ever tried Solid Gold just a Wee Bit (small breed) dog food.  Then you could add your brand of canned food, or rotate.  You feed like I do[:D] I mix half canned with 1/2 kibble when I feed kibble.  Or I mix in sardines or canned sockeye salmon in place of canned food a few times a week.  

    I have never seen a small breed canned formula.  Canned formulas are already higher in protein than kibble and bite size isn't an issue
    .
    exactly Jenns[:D
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Cally01

    Ok...I tried Canidae, Innova, Nature's Variety, Natural Balance, Solid Gold, and California Natural canned....all with the same result...I think that was enough to tell me an all canned diet wasn't working for my dog...

    That's too bad for your little dog.  I find with most dogs when they have horrible digestive upsets from some foods they are either cannot tolerate one of the ingredients or they need the stool hardeners like beet pulp in the kibble...if the latter is true then there is a much deeper issue at hand that can lead to leaky gut syndrome.  I would be very concerned.  It's also just depends on the dogs...I've seen small dogs do well on a complete canned diet than those that do not...but, every dog is different.[:D]

    By the way papillon806, I do enjoy your posts and we can all learn from each other.  I have learned a few things from this thread as well.  I'm not being aurgumentive...just discussing what I have seen and what I believe...that doesn't make me any more right than what you believe.  If we all had the same thoughts it would be a very boring world.[:D]  


    My dog doesn't have any GI issue's, I can assure you.  It was pretty clear to me that the diarrhea was being caused by the excess of moisture in the diet (yes, there is such a thing as too much moisture).  Also, beet pulp is not a bad thing; it is not there just to "harden" the stools for no purpose other than easy clean-up as many  myths impose....ask Mordanna, even she will agree with that.  It helps keep the good bacterial flora balanced in the small intestine (hence why fiber is important in the diet) to regulate the GI tract.
    • Bronze
    it is not there just to "harden" the stools for no purpose other than easy clean-up as many myths impose
    ORIGINAL: papillon806

    Firm stools are good for the dog and the owner.  Reading others' experiences with anal glands, if firm stools greatly reduce the likelihood of problems, poop firmness is one of my kibble grading criteria.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Cally01

    Have you ever tried Solid Gold just a Wee Bit (small breed) dog food.  Then you could add your brand of canned food, or rotate.  You feed like I do[:D] I mix half canned with 1/2 kibble when I feed kibble.  Or I mix in sardines or canned sockeye salmon in place of canned food a few times a week.  

    I have never seen a small breed canned formula.  Canned formulas are already higher in protein than kibble and bite size isn't an issue
    .
    exactly Jenns[:D

    Is that available at petsmart or petco?
    • Gold Top Dog
    My dog doesn't have any GI issue's, I can assure you. It was pretty clear to me that the diarrhea was being caused by the excess of moisture in the diet (yes, there is such a thing as too much moisture).


    Why do my dogs have solid stools, then? They don't eat any dry food, at all (they aren't on canned, either, but home prepared modified raw). I actually ADD water to their bowls, before feeding, and they drink plain water from a bowl every day.  My mom's dog eats a very similar diet, and also has solid stools. They are from vastly different lineages, different ages, different health conditions. All three have eaten kibble, in the past, but never (since I've had my two, anyways) as their sole source of nutrition. I always mixed in canned food or table scraps.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Cherokee's food is ALWAYS soupy (I add water until it is), and she ALWAYS has solid, firm, perfect stools. So I'm kind of disagreeing with the moisture thing too...
    • Gold Top Dog
    My dog doesn't have any GI issue's, I can assure you. It was pretty clear to me that the diarrhea was being caused by the excess of moisture in the diet (yes, there is such a thing as too much moisture). Also, beet pulp is not a bad thing; it is not there just to "harden" the stools for no purpose other than easy clean-up as many myths impose....ask Mordanna, even she will agree with that. It helps keep the good bacterial flora balanced in the small intestine (hence why fiber is important in the diet) to regulate the GI tract.


    I never said it was a bad thing...but, it does help to firm up stools...most fibers do.[:D]  Some dogs do OK on canned, some don't...not a big deal.  I have seen many that do extremely well.  I just mentioned the GI tract issue just in case. 

    The reason I mentioned it is because I don't recall seeing beet pulp in canned foods...or perhaps I'm not reading the labels properly...or bad memory...and too lazy to google ingredients.[:D]