Small Breed Dog Food??

It IS rude to applaud a name calling post.

 
Name calling? I didn't call anyone a name.. I said Miss Kiwi's ost was patronizing. I said she was acting like a typical vet (which is what I later apologized for). But I didn't do any name calling, unless saying someone acts like a vet is name-calling? Now I'm really confused.

ORIGINAL: abbysdad

If you get you get your knowledge and education thru an institute of higher learning, you are brainwashed, if you get it off the internet and websites that are trying to sell products, you are smart and enlightened.

The only thing that differs is who you get your brainwashing from...

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

It IS rude to applaud a name calling post.

Name calling? I didn't call anyone a name.. I said Miss Kiwi's ost was patronizing. I said she was acting like a typical vet (which is what I later apologized for). But I didn't do any name calling, unless saying someone acts like a vet is name-calling? Now I'm really confused.

Well, that isnt exactly ALL you said, but can we get back on topic please?  Do you have any thoughts about the puppy formula vs. small dog formula thing?

ORIGINAL: jenns

ORIGINAL: abbysdad

institute of higher learning

What, the Hills, Waltham and Iams Institute?, otherwise known as vet school nutrition class?

My nutrition course was taught by the Mark Morris Institute... I have no idea what their affiliations are, but the class was extremely unbiased. The only time I got even the slightest hint that one food might be better than another was when the instructor said Eukanuba large breed was a waste of money because its nearly identical to regular puppy formulas.

http://www.markmorris.org/mmi/main/index.jsp

ORIGINAL: Lilea

Back to the original subject for a minute--  I said before that having compared puppy formulas with small breed formulas they look the same to me.  Both having higher fat and protein and pretty much the same in every way that I could see.  So couldnt you really just feed a puppy food forever?  Anyone have any thoughts?

The only difference that I know of is the smaller kibble size. If your dog prefers it, great! Yes, you can feed puppy food for the life of your dog. Just keep in mind that its higher in fat and calories, so you'll have to adjust the portions accordingly. As your dog hits geriatric age, you might want to look into a food that has fewer minerals, higher fiber, and lower fat... but for now, puppy food is fine if that is what you and your dog prefer.

Do you have any thoughts about the puppy formula vs. small dog formula thing?

 
Suuuure... Most puppy formulas have higher amounts of some, if not most, vitamins and minerals, than adult foods. I'm doubtful that feeding a puppy formula to an adult dog would cause problems, but I suppose it's possible.

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

Papillon- I posted the ingredients for Science Diet because Lilea mentioned that she read the ingredients on a bag at Petsmart and didn't see what was so wrong with it.

Misskiwi- I can't say that I understand your way of thinking with nutrition. To me it seems really obvious that a food that's meat based, with fruits, veggies, probiotics and natural preservatives is much healthier than a corn based food with with litte meat, artificial preservatives and then synthetic vitamins. [&:] It's the equivalent of a person eating ONLY chicken and rice with a centrum multivitamin every day. Common sense says that it's much more nutritious to eat a variety of foods, including fruits and vegetables. [8|]

I'm really sorry for triple posting... but I hate replying without quotes and I can never find my cursor to copy and paste on this forum.... []

Here's my thinking... meat is great, but the quality of meat isn't easily judged just from the way its listed. Meat meals and by-product meals vary widely in their nutrient levels, and there is NO way to know how good the meal is without calling the company and asking. Having Chicken meal vs. general meat meal just means you know what animal it came from... it doesnt actually mean its always better. Generally it is, but not always...

So we're in agreement about the fact that meat is better, thats a no-brainer. But why are veggies better than corn, other than for variety? Both are plant products, and corn is generally well digested and has a surprisingly decent number of nutrients in it. I think people miss the fact that I don't think veggies are bad, and I honestly don't think corn is better, I just don't think its bad, or a reason to immediately discount a food... therefore I commonly use it as an example of how close-minded the general public has become due to the marketing of many food companies. The only way for them to prove their food is better is to make another company's food look worse. What do people look at first, ingredients.... so if they make the #1 ingredient look bad, then they've successfully made their product look better. As far as I'm concerned, its all just marketing, its not a real reflection of ingredient quality. Ingredients alone do not make a food... they're one of many parts.

To me, a preservative is a preservative. It doesn't matter if its "natural" or not, because natural does not mean safer in my book. If you're going to have a preservative, I want something that will do a good job. Dog foods NEED preservatives because of the cooking process and shelf life... if we could get rid of them completely, then I would be in total agreement with you... preservatives are not a desirable thing... but if you must have them, lets at least use a good one. I have yet to see anything that says mixed tocopherols are better or safer than BHA/BHT. Natural does not mean safe.

Synthetic vitamins are just as good as natural ones, IF they're the exact chemical structure. Can you name me some synthetic vitamins that are not the same chemical structure??? If so, then you're probably right, natural may be better... but not always. It depends on the structure and metabolism of that individual vitamin.

Probiotics... absolutely, I see no problem with adding them to foods... provided they aren't unreasonably priced. If it marks up the food more than a jar of yogurt every week, then I don't want to see them in my food. There is a thin line between helping pets and marketing.

Does that help you understand where I'm coming from a bit better? I don't think you're wrong, you obviously take very good care of your pets and care deeply about what they do and don't eat... I just think differently, and this is my reasoning.

Common sense says that it's much more nutritious to eat a variety of foods, including fruits and vegetables.

 
I really really really don't want to start the omnivore/carnivore debate, so let's just say that just because something is healthy for humans doesn't mean it's necessary for dogs. It's my opinion that at this point an omnivorous diet is healthiest for our domestic dogs, because factory farmed meat doesn't have everything it would if it were wild. It's missing crucial nutrients that fruits, veggies & grains can help make up for. But, in a perfect world, with perfectly natural whole animals, I don't believe dogs need any plant matter in their diets. Do wild dogs sometimes consume plant matter? Yes, obviously, but that doesn't mean they get anything out of it.
 
I'm sorry, I've been seeing people call dogs omnivores as fact for several days, and have done a pretty darn good job ignoring it, but I just couldn't anymore. This will probably turn into a 12 page debate now, and I apologize for that. [] 

This has gotten a little ridiculous. I'm not going to get into a debate about whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores or whether the chemical structure of synthetic vitamins is the same as natural vitamins. [&:] Those things are just that- debatable and I think it's a waste of time to go in circles arguing.

The one thing that I think is very clear cut is that artificial preservatives like BHA and BHT are definitely thought to cause cancer. Vitamin E is thought to prevent cancer. I don't know why anyone would choose artificial preservatives based on that risk. I don't care if my dog's food doesn't have a 2 year shelf life. I just bought a bag of Eagle Pack Holistic today and the expiration date is Aug 31, 2007. I'm quite sure my dog will eat it way before then. []

ORIGINAL: Lilea

Back to the original subject for a minute--  I said before that having compared puppy formulas with small breed formulas they look the same to me.  Both having higher fat and protein and pretty much the same in every way that I could see.  So couldnt you really just feed a puppy food forever?  Anyone have any thoughts?

Actually you can feed a puppy food for as long as you want; I actually prefer it for my dog.  I usually feed Wolfie puppy formulas (depending on the brand) because of the higher protein/fat. []  The only time it would be an issue is if your dog had pancreatic problems.

Do you have any thoughts about the puppy formula vs. small dog formula thing?

Lilea, is it top priority to feed a kibble diet? why not a canned diet? the canning process allows the food to be free of artificial and natural preservatives.  Plus, you could feed a few raw meals a week in place of the canned food...perhaps some RMB's to clean teeth etc.  My dogs get a variety of raw/kibble/canned/dehydrated/freeze dried.  Which brings to mind the NRG dehydrated foods are nice as well.  Since you soak them they are easy to eat or can be mixed with canned.  If I had a small dog I wouldn't feed kibble[]
   

Synthetic vitamins are just as good as natural ones, IF they're the exact chemical structure. Can you name me some synthetic vitamins that are not the same chemical structure??? If so, then you're probably right, natural may be better... but not always. It depends on the structure and metabolism of that individual vitamin.

Misskiwi67, just for a different read you may find the book "Healing Pets with Nature's Miracle Cures" by Henry Pasternak DVM, CVA interesting.  He discusses in depth the dangers of synthetic vitamins.  Some parts I think he gets a tad bit fanatical in his thoughts, but, he does have research to back him up.  I think it's a great idea for a Vet to read up a bit on everything...I know with the Vets upstairs from our grooming shop have learned a great deal from our holistic vet as he has "results" where they have had many failures.  For stones, crystals, allergies the conventional vets would put on the special diet food...but, of course the problems only came back when the dogs/cats went back on their regular diet.  Having worked there as well I saw the seesaw of conventional med's and foods..but, at times they did work as well...I did see some dogs with allergies do very well on vet prescibed diets...but, I have seen the same dogs do much better on California Natural.  It's all a seeing is believing type thing & talking to my holistic vet who has been practicing for about 20 years ...not just internet reading[] 
 
Here is a small quote from his book

From a biochemical standpoint, synthetic vitamins are a mirror image of just a portion of the real, biologically active vitamin complex.  They are as different as right - and left-hand gloves.  They may appear identical but react in different ways.  The body can tell difference and treats synthetic vitamins as drugs and not as nutrients as teh manufacturers would have you believe.  By the way, synthetic vitamins are produced by several pharmaceutical companies.  One must be careful when taking synthetic vitamins because high does can be toxic. 

 
He then goes on to explain each synthetic vitamin and what health problems they cause...like synthetic vitamin C can cause kidney stones, while natural vitamin C does not.  It's a very interesting read.
 

and there is NO way to know how good the meal is without calling the company and asking. 

I was reading in the WDJ in teh Dec issue about different dog food plants.  The WDJ are in the process of going to some of the dog food plants they recommend and getting the grand tour and inspecting the meats etc they put into the food.  Most of the natural dog food companies are more than happy to have people stop by and they are proud of the products they use.  The WDJ said they were more than impressed.  Same goes with Nature's Variety and Natura, I've heard they have no qualms of being inspected and are quite proud of what they put into their foods.   The WDJ said they saw clean plants, whole real foods that were treated in a professional manner etc.
 

To me, a preservative is a preservative. It doesn't matter if its "natural" or not, because natural does not mean safer in my book. If you're going to have a preservative, I want something that will do a good job. Dog foods NEED preservatives because of the cooking process and shelf life... if we could get rid of them completely, then I would be in total agreement with you... preservatives are not a desirable thing... but if you must have them, lets at least use a good one. I have yet to see anything that says mixed tocopherols are better or safer than BHA/BHT. Natural does not mean

 
This information is taken for the book "Herbs for Pets" by Mary L wulff-Tilford and Gregory L. Tilford...also a great book to add to any library.
 
Many dog food companies use a combination of natural preservatives including Rosemary.  With the dog foods I feed they use Rosemary as a natural preservative...Vitamin E is used as a natural preservative for the fats the dog foods use.
 

Rosemary when added to food  rosemary is a natural barrier against food borne bacteria.  The ursolic acid and carnisol constituents of rosemary have antioxidant and antimicrobial properties that are effective against pseudomonas fluorenscens, Rhodoturula glutinius, and other pathogens that contribute to food spoilage.  In fact, rosemary's effectiveness is comparable to that of the more harmful chemical preservatives BHA or BHT.
 
Rosemary also has excellent antimicrobial properties inside or on your companion's body.  Scientific studies have shown that it is active againsst various types of fungi, as well as numerous gram positive and gram negative bacteria, including staphylococcus albus, staphylococcus aureus, E. Coli, Vibrio cholerae, and corynebacteria.

 
 
  

If I had a small dog I wouldn't feed kibble

You would if an all canned diet gave them horrible diarrhea.  I've tried this with my dog  and the results were not good....long haired dog+diarrhea or loose stools = not good, lol.  Plus, it's hard to get a small dog to eat enough canned food as needed--their stomachs are very small and the amount of canned food needed to get the right amount of kcals is more than most small dogs can even eat in 3 feedings.  Trust me, I've tried.

He then goes on to explain each synthetic vitamin and what health problems they cause...like synthetic vitamin C can cause kidney stones, while natural vitamin C does not.  It's a very interesting read.

Any vitamin that is filtered through the kidneys (synthetic or not) can cause kidney stones...

By the way, synthetic vitamins are produced by several pharmaceutical companies.  One must be careful when taking synthetic vitamins because high doses can be toxic

It doesn't matter if their are synthetic or natural...ANY vitamin can be toxic when taking over the recommended dose.

It doesn't matter if their are synthetic or natural...ANY vitamin can be toxic when taking over the recommended dose.

Any vitamin that is filtered through the kidneys (synthetic or not) can cause kidney stones...

Dr Pasternak explains this in detail in his book...I think I'll take the words of a D.V.M., C.V.A over a poster on an internet forum any day[]  This is why I try to get as many raw natural meals into my dogs diet with natural vitamins in the food source and herb's that contain the natural vitamins in whole form...when in their natural state vitamins never achieve toxic levels.  This is also explained by Dr. Andrew Weil in many of his books as well...so it's not just one doctor's opinion...and one is by a holistic human health care profesional the other a Vet.[]  

You would if an all canned diet gave them horrible diarrhea.  I've tried this with my dog  and the results were not good....long haired dog+diarrhea or loose stools = not good, lol.

 
Diarrhea can happen with any food kibble or canned food...it's finding the ones that agree with the dog.  Tori our Newfoundland gets horrible diarrhea on Eukanuba kibble food....try keeping a big hairy Newfoundland butt clean..lol  Tori also does not tolereate NRG foods very well either, but, our other dogs do extremely well on it....Tori does fantastic on canned Nature's Variety...we always feed as much canned as our pocket book will allow.  Also, 2 of the groomers at the shop rescued 2 puppymill Boston Terrier pups from the SPCA...they were on Medi-Cal kibble dog food provided by the SPCA, they had diarrhea constantly, poor coat and gassy....really messy, it was thought at that time it was due to poor health or  worms...treatments never made a difference at all.   They are now on Canidae canned food and are doing fantastic.  I guess it depends on the dog. 

Diarrhea can happen with any food kibble or canned food...it's finding the ones that agree with the dog.  Tori our Newfoundland gets horrible diarrhea on Eukanuba kibble food....try keeping a big hairy Newfoundland butt clean..lol  Tori also does not tolereate NRG foods very well either, but, our other dogs do extremely well on it....Tori does fantastic on canned Nature's Variety...we always feed as much canned as our pocket book will allow.  Also, 2 of the groomers at the shop rescued 2 puppymill Boston Terrier pups from the SPCA...they were on Medi-Cal kibble dog food provided by the SPCA, they had diarrhea constantly, poor coat and gassy....really messy, it was thought at that time it was due to poor health or intentinal worms...treatments never made a difference at all.   They are now on Canidae canned food and are doing fantastic.  I guess it depends on the dog.

Ok...I tried Canidae, Innova, Nature's Variety, Natural Balance, Solid Gold, and California Natural canned....all with the same result...I think that was enough to tell me an all canned diet wasn't working for my dog...he has never had any problem like that on dry food.

And also let me re-state the fact that small dogs have small stomachs and that still doesn't help with how they can't seem to eat enough canned food at every meal to maintain their proper kcal requirements.