How Important Is Puppy Food?

    • Gold Top Dog
    I'd buy a feed store food before I gave money to Iams. It would be OK if they slapped a white label on it that said "DOG FOOD" and charged 99 cents for 5 pounds. The deceptive advertising and overcharging for it is irritating.

    It's around the same price as Bil-Jac and Diamond naturals puppy and the ingredients in those are WAY better (the Diamond naturals in particular, if you are choosy about the prop gly and BHA).

    A feed store brand, small breed puppy, $8 for 15 pounds:

    Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Ground Corn, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Plain Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Dried Potato Product, Menhaden Fish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Flavors, Dried Whole Eggs, Flax Meal, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, DL-Methionine, Dried Cheese, L-Lysine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Garlic, Vitamin E Supplement, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, More Vitamins and Minerals, blah, blah, including the M-word

    Iams small breed puppy $9 for 8 pounds:

    Chicken, Corn Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fish Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, vitamins and minerals
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: brookcove

    I'd buy a feed store food before I gave money to Iams. It would be OK if they slapped a white label on it that said "DOG FOOD" and charged 99 cents for 5 pounds. The deceptive advertising and overcharging for it is irritating.

    It's around the same price as Bil-Jac and Diamond naturals puppy and the ingredients in those are WAY better (the Diamond naturals in particular, if you are choosy about the prop gly and BHA).

    A feed store brand, small breed puppy, $8 for 15 pounds:

    Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Ground Corn, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Plain Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Dried Potato Product, Menhaden Fish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Flavors, Dried Whole Eggs, Flax Meal, Lecithin, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, DL-Methionine, Dried Cheese, L-Lysine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Ascorbic Acid, Dried Garlic, Vitamin E Supplement, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, More Vitamins and Minerals, blah, blah, including the M-word

    Iams small breed puppy $9 for 8 pounds:

    Chicken, Corn Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Fish Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, vitamins and minerals


    So... other than the fact that the feed store brand has a meat meal listed first... what is preferable from the first list to the second? I'm honestly not being facetious here... thats really the only thing that I see different besides the chicken meal vs. Chicken by-product meal. A company like Iams probably isn't buying beaks and feathers, so the by-products don't bother me...
    • Gold Top Dog
    Misskiwi you dont happen to be involved in the veterinary proffession do you?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Haha... I'm a veterinary student... so yeah.

    I am however, here to learn as much as share my own opinion. There are a LOT of things they don't teach you in vet school.

    I learned a long time ago that the clients who care about more than just the bare basics are the clients I want when I get to the real world. They may be harder to please and harder to convince, but they're also more likely to go above and beyond for their pet. So therefore, anything that is important to the people here (the proactive, educated owners) should also be important to me.
    • Gold Top Dog
    i cant see iams letting them into the ones that the animal testing is conducted


    No offense, but you must not have any experience with animal experimentation. It is extremely tightly regulated. You don't have the option to keep anyone out ha ha.

    And as to why they didn't sue, who would they sue??? PETA? Why would anyone become involved in a lengthy, expensive lawsuit with a company which isn't very well regarded by the general population. And I agree with you, it isn't the greatest food and I think that's what they should be judged on.
    • Gold Top Dog
    clients who care about more than just the bare basics are the clients I want when I get to the real world.


    Good on you [:D]
    Have you considered incorporating holistic medicine in with you're complimentary vet studies?I have found those pet owners who seek out natural alternatives as well as complimentary avenues are the most open minded and are prepared to go that extra step in helping their pets.

    The reason i asked if you were in the vet field was because,and pleeease dont take offense to this,is because i have heard that the big pet food companies,iams,science death et al,do the lectures and provide the literature to vet students,who by the time they have finished their studies are well and truly brainwashed [&:] Just go in to an average vet clinic and look at the rows and rows of SD on their shelves,and the way alot of vets push these foods as the be all and end all,and snub their noses up at the more holistic foods,that is if they have ever even heard of them....

    We have a vet member here,"dvet",who thinks foods like innova etc are hogwash and that we are suckers for buying such foods [&o]

    Misskiwi whats you're opinion on foods like science die,.the average line,not the rx,and will you be pushing/recommending those foods on to you're clients when you get out on you're own?
    • Gold Top Dog
    MissKiwi (by the way, what's your connection, if any, to New Zealand?), the difference from the first list to the second is the price!

    I did discover something interesting about Iams' price positioning, when I was trying to figure out how to illustrate my point about what makes me most irritated about Iams. What I really wanted to find was a food in Iams' exact price range, with better ingredients.

    Guess what? There aren't any!

    The better foods (Chicken Soup, Diamond Naturals, Blackwood, Bil-Jac) are very slightly higher, about ten to fifteen cents a pound more. Then the feed store brands with similiar ingredients are dramatically cheaper, probably leading people to believe that they are not "premium" foods. It's clear what Iams' market is - people who are looking for top quality but don't want to go out of their way for it. "We're just as good! We're cheaper! We're convenient!"

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised that Iams' marketing team is incredidibly on the ball in this respect. I mean, they are the ones that have most of the world convinced that Iams is a health food. [8|]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Edie

    Good on you [:D]
    Have you considered incorporating holistic medicine in with you're complimentary vet studies?I have found those pet owners who seek out natural alternatives as well as complimentary avenues are the most open minded and are prepared to go that extra step in helping their pets.

    The reason i asked if you were in the vet field was because,and pleeease dont take offense to this,is because i have heard that the big pet food companies,iams,science death et al,do the lectures and provide the literature to vet students,who by the time they have finished their studies are well and truly brainwashed [&:] Just go in to an average vet clinic and look at the rows and rows of SD on their shelves,and the way alot of vets push these foods as the be all and end all,and snub their noses up at the more holistic foods,that is if they have ever even heard of them....

    We have a vet member here,"dvet",who thinks foods like innova etc are hogwash and that we are suckers for buying such foods [&o]

    Misskiwi whats you're opinion on foods like science die,.the average line,not the rx,and will you be pushing/recommending those foods on to you're clients when you get out on you're own?



    I have thought about using integrated methods, but there is even less holistic education available than there is nutritional education. ALL of the holistic education I recieve is through the same sorts of "lunch lectures" that you all frown upon from food companies. The lectures are sponsored by the holistic club, which is financially supported by the Natura company (makers of Innova and California Natural). Now if you can frown upon my Hills sponsored nutritional education, then you should also frown on my holistic education... but I can guarrantee you it won't work that way. Either way, I try my best to stay "fair and balanced" and have a well rounded education. Weather or not I'll consider myself well educated enough to actually include holistic practice when I become a doctor is yet to be seen. I will however, be open minded enough not to give clients a lecture for attempting to educate themselves, which I think is a good start for now...

    I will agree with dvet and say that some of those foods are hogwash. A lot of the formulations are produced from pressure from consumers, the majority of which are spouting misinformation gleaned from similarly consumer-oriented internet websites. Holistic foods are one of the fastest growing and top money-makers in the food business right now, and to say that they aren't just as consumer oriented as companies like Hills and Purina is ridiculous and incredibly narrow minded. There are some very good foods being produced due to consumer pressures, but there are others that I don't like at all. For instance, Innova EVO (canine) scares the hell out of me, and I've seen many many poorly planned and poorly executed home cooked and raw diets. The home-made diets are the best and the worst in my opinion. They're the best when done well, and the worst when done poorly.

    As for science diet, I think its day has passed. It used to be the best, but it doesn't seem to be changing with the times. Corn is not a bad ingredient (I will post articles with proof if you need them) but I think a meat or meat by-product meal should still be the bulk of a food for canines. I will, however, sell it and recommend it as a starting food. I think everyone should try several foods and select the one that works best for their pet. I don't think science diet is science death... in fact, most of my pets are currently eating it. I've tried several different diets (including Merrick, Nutro and Innova EVO feline) and I just keep coming back because my pets look good and feel good on it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    For instance, Innova EVO (canine) scares the hell out of me, and I've seen many many poorly planned and poorly executed home cooked and raw diets. The home-made diets are the best and the worst in my opinion. They're the best when done well, and the worst when done poorly/


      There are differing opinions about EVO here; some feed it with very good results. Others, like me, are worried about the ash content (12.38%). Why don't you like it? There are many good holistic foods and their growing popularity has put pressure on the main stream companies like Purina to produce lines like Pro Plan Selects where they include some meat in the food. About a year ago, I started a thread where I made the argument that even though companies like Purina and Hill's didn't produce meat based foods the research put into their products gave them the ability to make better foods than holistic companies even though they used inferior ingredients. Something Schlep said changed my mind; it was something along the lines of; no matter how much research they do, they can't turn corn into meat. He said it much better; I can't remember the exact words, but I agree.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't like the ash, I don't like the ridiculously high protein contents (not proven detrimental, but not proven necessary either), I don't like stories of kidney and liver values going through the roof while on the food, and my personal experience with it was poor as well.

    I've always disliked the idea of having more than half a food be protein, but I know that cats are obligate carnivores, and I have a cat that I just CANNOT take the pounds off, even using a restricted calorie food and restricted calorie intake. I read some very interesting studies about the way that cats metabolize protein and carbohydrate, so I decided to give it a shot. Since my cats were going from one drastic spectrum to another, I switched them slowly over a 2 week period, carefully measuring and mixing foods in increasing proportions. One of my cats is black, great weight, and has always looked fabulous, but he has allergy issues that cause his anal glands to become impacted. After about 10 days of being solely on the EVO, he started scooting his butt on the ground. I thought it was odd, but didn't do anything about it because it was exam week and I was to busy to bother switching him back. 2-3 days later, he had diarrhea, and I decided he'd had enough. I switched him cold turkey back to his previous diet, and the problems immediately went away. I will admit that while on the EVO he lost his tummy pooch and became even shinier than before, so I was sad that he reacted poorly. I just chalked it up to allergies at that point in time however, and hoped that my other cat would eventually look as good as he did. About a week later, my other cat (who did not lose any weight and did not look any better) also got diarrhea, and it was then that I determined it had to be the food. I switched her cold turkey back the the science diet as well, and the diarrhea went away. I still give her the EVO cans however, just because she likes them...

    I just think its odd for an animal to get diarrhea from a food 3 weeks into the diet. Its expected to have GI upset immediately, but why so much later???
    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't like the ash, I don't like the ridiculously high protein contents (not proven detrimental, but not proven necessary either), I don't like stories of kidney and liver values going through the roof while on the food, and my personal experience with it was poor as well

     
       Where did you hear about pets having high kidney and liver values from EVO; there are some members who would be very interested in this.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I just think its odd for an animal to get diarrhea from a food 3 weeks into the diet. Its expected to have GI upset immediately, but why so much later???


    Hmm. I know you probably won't like this because it smacks a lot of holistic hocus-pocus, but diarrhea and other odd things coming out of the blue right at twenty-one days sounds a lot like what they call "de-tox." You wouldn't believe what I've seen in dogs right at that point, especially dogs fed diets very heavily dependent on low-quality grains. For crazy bad problems, I usually just rest the GI for a day, then gradually re-introduce the food over a bland diet (something like boiled chicken and rice). I've always had good results and never discovered any true intolerance (besides my own Ben - just lucky there, I guess [8|])

    I did have one kitty that was allergic to chicken and went off her food completely when I was trying to feed her a diet of raw chicken and balanced premix [:o]. That poor kitty should have been a lesson in a dermatological pathology course - she even had lesions on the inside of her throat. I think her yeast infections were growing yeast infections before we figured out what was wrong with her finally. [:(]

    Sorry, WAY off topic. Anyway, you can tell whether you are dealing with detox versus a tolerance issue or an overfeeding problem, because (and this is going to sound reaaaallly dumb), detox goes away on its own and the animal suddenly "blooms." Because a lot of times detox almost makes the animal look sick (dull coat, bad body odor or breath, gi problems), the difference is almost invariably startling.

    Some you hardly notice this phase, some young animals or ones that are only "stepping up" a teeny bit - they may not even do this at all. I think as many grocery store brands get with the program and offer foods that are less dependent on the grain fractions, that I don't see the severe "detox" as often.

    I'll give you an example to show what this can look like at its most extreme. I took in a twelve year old dog and switched him over to raw - I was doing BARF style at the time, so he was going from feed store brand to raw meaty bones and a balanced meal of ground meat and veggies, fruits, and whole eggs with shell, plus various supplements, fish, and yogurt. I started him on cooked oatmeat and rice, with the eggs scrambled, over his kibble, and followed a careful program my mentor laid out for me, in weaning him off kibble entirely, and getting him up to a couple chicken wings, a couple of tablespoons of the veggie mixture, and some yogurt, plus the rice or oatmeal.

    It took two weeks to go off the kibble completely, and about three weeks after that I noticed something funny about Greg. He'd been looking pretty good for a twelve year old dog, but suddenly he looked horribly old. His coat looked ratty, he stank so bad you could smell him across the room, and he even had tear stains. I checked temp, gum color, urine color, etc to make sure we didn't have an emergency on our hands! He was bright eyed and bushy tailed so I hung tough even though I could hardly stand to be in the same room with him, poor guy.

    After two days of this, we went to bed but I had trouble sleeping because Greg was making a ton of noise in his crate right outside our door. Suddenly there was a burst of unmistakeable sounds, followed by - horrors - splashing. Ah yes, the sound foster parents love to hear! I rushed out to find that about half the hallway was coated with barf, pee, and you-know-what else, all with that horrible stink. Instead of being half-dead, as you might think, Greg actually looked rather pleased with himself once I got him out of the mess, so I focused on getting the hall and crate cleaned up. I put Greg in the isolation kennel, figuring I'd clean him up in the morning.

    The next morning I went out to give Greg his bath, but he came out of the kennel sparkling clean already. His coat, which had always had that "kennel dog" brittle yellow look, was so white it was almost irridescent, and the black in his coat had a mirror finish, practically. His hair was fluffy, soft, and supple. Before, he had a kennel dog smell to him, until the last couple days when he smelled like lettuce that went bad in the fridge. Now he had NO odor. He bounced out the door and leaped around like a young dog and in fact I was able a few months later to take him to a couple of small sheepdog competitions, and he won! And he never, ever had another problem with the food.

    I don't know why this is true, but I can't deny what I've seen over and over in dogs I've brought here (and three cats). I don't think the theories the holistic experts put forward on this subject, are on the right track, but then, I'm not a vet and some of them are! I think it has less to do with "toxins" and more to do with cells refreshing, possibly the system adjusting to the new probiotic profile in the GI - but again, I'm not a trained professional, just an amateur who feeds a lot of dogs under very demanding conditions. [;)]

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

    I don't like the ash, I don't like the ridiculously high protein contents (not proven detrimental, but not proven necessary either), I don't like stories of kidney and liver values going through the roof while on the food, and my personal experience with it was poor as well


      Where did you hear about pets having high kidney and liver values from EVO; there are some members who would be very interested in this.


    Someone on another forums mother/sister put both of her dogs on Innova EVO because the store was all crazy about this great new food. A couple months later they both went to the vet for their yearly checkups, which included yearly bloodwork. This year, however, the bloodwork was really funky. I believe it was just the liver values that were through the roof, but it was both dogs and the only thing that had changed was the food. So they switched the diet back, and redid the bloodwork 6 weeks later. Both dogs were back in the normal ranges at the recheck.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: brookcove

    I just think its odd for an animal to get diarrhea from a food 3 weeks into the diet. Its expected to have GI upset immediately, but why so much later???


    Hmm. I know you probably won't like this because it smacks a lot of holistic hocus-pocus, but diarrhea and other odd things coming out of the blue right at twenty-one days sounds a lot like what they call "de-tox." You wouldn't believe what I've seen in dogs right at that point, especially dogs fed diets very heavily dependent on low-quality grains. For crazy bad problems, I usually just rest the GI for a day, then gradually re-introduce the food over a bland diet (something like boiled chicken and rice). I've always had good results and never discovered any true intolerance (besides my own Ben - just lucky there, I guess [8|])



    See, detox makes sense in a way, because I go through detox on a regular basis. However, I DO NOT go through detox when I come home for christmas (or summer) and start eating home-cooked meals, extra veggies, sitting down for breakfast etc. I detox when I go back to school and start eating mac-n-cheese, cafeteria food, and pizza hut. It takes my body a week or so to adjust to eating crap again. And... its that first week, not three weeks later.

    Also, the intestinal cell lining is completely replaced every 8 days (5 days in puppies)... so the detox being due to the replacement of cells 2-3 weeks later doesn't make sense. I think its a made up theory by people who don't understand good science, but there are a million stories out there that make me wonder.

    When I get back from break, Sheila will be switched from Science Diet to California Natural. Its a 40 lb bag, and she'll be eating it all by herself until its gone. Hopefully she won't have any joint or allergy issues come up that confuse the food change like I've had happen with Romeo and the cats. I'll be watching for the "de-tox" and maybe I'll be convinced then...
    • Gold Top Dog
    Also, the intestinal cell lining is completely replaced every 8 days (5 days in puppies)... so the detox being due to the replacement of cells 2-3 weeks later doesn't make sense. I think its a made up theory by people who don't understand good science, but there are a million stories out there that make me wonder.



    This is interesting, a lot of people keep bringing up detox and I have to admit I've been confused to what they meant. Why would changing diet have any effect on cell sloughing in the colon which is what would cause the mucus. Colonocyte inflammation=mucus. By the time food gets to the colon, most nutrient absorbsion is done and just water is absorbed. Just curious? It seems to happen a lot from what people are saying anecdotally with pets switched to raw diets, why do you think this causes transient colon inflammation?