T.O. Salmon Oil...and Vit. E

Are mg and IU the same? If not, that could be causing the confusion.

[linkhttp://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9648]http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9648[/link]

The definition of an international unit (IU) is generally arbitrary, technical, and eminently forgettable. For example, an IU of vitamin E is the specific biological activity of 0.671 milligrams of d-alpha-tocopherol. Nonetheless, most IUs are quite handy and helpful in use as a means of standardizing measures.

  [linkhttp://mvhs1.mbhs.edu/riverweb/glossary.html#M]http://mvhs1.mbhs.edu/riverweb/glossary.html#M[/link];   milligram (mg)--One-thousandth of a gram.
 
   It looks like chaza is using the terms milligrams and IU's interchangeably.

  

  

 

the search button is STILL being a jerk, so I did another search on this and found this again.

From [linkhttp://www.oilofpisces.com/vitamine.html]this site.[/link]

Fish oil and vitamin E go together
BELTSVILLE, MARYLAND. Fish oils are beneficial in the prevention of cancer and cardiovascular disease. They do, however, oxidize very easily and therefore add to the oxidant stress on the body. An experiment was recently carried out by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to see if an increased intake of vitamin E could counteract this detrimental effect of fish oils. Forty men aged 32 to 44 were involved. The men consumed a controlled diet for a total of 28 weeks. For the first 10 weeks they received placebo oil capsules (15 g/day), for the next 10 weeks they received fish oil capsules (15 g/day), and for the last 8 weeks they received the fish oil plus 200 mg of vitamin E (all-rac-alpha-tocopherol). The urinary excretion of peroxidation products (malondialdehyde) more than doubled when the fish oil capsules were introduced but then dropped by a factor of four when vitamin E was added. The vitamin E concentration in the red blood cells dropped very significantly when fish oil was ingested but more than recovered with the vitamin E supplement. It is concluded that the negative effects of fish oil consumption can be overcome by taking them together with vitamin E.
Nair, Padmanabhan P., et al. Dietary fish oil-induced changes in the distribution of alpha-tocopherol, retinol, and beta-carotene in plasma, red blood cells, and platelets: modulation by vitamin E. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 58, July 1993, pp. 98-102

Fish oil supplements increase requirements for Vitamin E
LONDON, ENGLAND. A recent experiment carried out at King's College in London showed that daily intake of fish oil supplement reduces the plasma concentration of vitamin E to below normal range. Nine healthy male subjects were given a daily fish oil supplement containing 2.1 g docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and 0.8 g eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) for a six week period. The proportion of DHA and EPA in the blood increased during the trial while the concentration of very-low-density-lipoprotein-cholesterol and triacylglycerol decreased. Blood pressure fell slightly during treatment, but rose again once the fish oil supplementation was discontinued. Of particular interest was the finding that alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E) concentration in the blood fell from 20 micromol/l to about 10 micromol/l during the experiment. This raises the question whether fish oil supplementation increases the need for antioxidant supplementation.
Sanders, T.A.B. and Hinds, Allison. The influence of a fish oil high in docosahexaenoic acid on plasma lipoprotein and vitamin E concentrations and haemostatic function in healthy male volunteers. British Journal of Nutrition, Vol. 68, July 1992, pp. 163-73

ORIGINAL: smilee1079

ORIGINAL: chasza

That seems like an awfully high amount of a fat soluable vitamin. For that recommended rate, it would be equivalent to 600 mg. for an average 150 lb. person. Daily, that, in my opinion, is just too high. To me, a human shouldn't take but around 200 mg a day. So, that would be a lot less for a 10 lb. dog. I realize a lot of people disagree with this, but you can get too much of a good thing.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I'm really not. Maybe my dose baseage is too low, but it seems the other is too high. Per monica's doage from last post: 50 mg. per 10 lbs == 800 mg for an adult. That's very, very high. Is the basis for Monica's decision on so much vit E because dogs utilitze fat soluable oils differently than humans? I've never read this, just taking a guess at why her suggestion is where it's at????

Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this sounds too high??

Are mg and IU the same? If not, that could be causing the confusion.

Jessies mom... i told them (on the dachsie board I go on) about how people here say you need E with fish oil. One person's vet said it isn't necessary, and one person contacted Grizzly who said the way it is made has E in it, so no need to supplement. I am all sorts of confused because if I don't need to add another thing, I'd be thrilled, but if I need to, I can. The people have been doing grizzly for a long time with very healthy pups.

I know I'm not Jessies_mom, but I wanted to add that (and I cannot say for sure since I don't have grizzly oil in front of me) most likely the amount of vitamin E in the grizzly oil is only enough to be used as a preservative and not an appropriate amoutn to count for correct supplementation.[]

My apologies, I'm tired, and I did use those terms interchangeable - which is incorrect.  There is not any way to convert IU's to mg.'s either because it is different with every substance.  My mind was thinking IU's [], but I'm so accustomed to mg.'s that it came out by habit.  Thanks for checking that.
 
Chewbecca,  That is very good information.  I'm glad to have it. You do good research.  Now, they used 200 mg, which is odd, since most in America use IU's.  The coversion for Vitamin E would be that they used 300 IU's.  (this conversion can't be used for other vitamins, and it is still not a 'set in stone' conversion b/c for reasons I've read, but can't explain, you just can't do good coversions from mg.s to IU's.)
 
Anyway, for the sake of argument, we will say that they used 300 IU's for a 150 lb. man.  I still think you should work down and figure out your dog's weight and amount based on this.  I remember reading that for humans, Vit, E in high doses causes any cancers to grow faster.  They did not say why.
 
But, if you take Vit, E supplements, then you are supposed to have Vit K supplements.  Things work in tandem - anytime you just start throwing high amounts of something in the mix, then other things tend to get off-balanced.  Vit K foods are yogurts, leafy greens cheese, liver (don't use too much liver because it's so very high in Vit. A).
 
So, I think a little is fine, a lot is not.  But, that's just my opinion.  And I admit to still learning, but that's where I stand with what I know now. []
 
And, again, I'm glad you posted those articles, because I had asked this question at the very best nutrition store in town, and they had said that you didn't need Vit. E supplementation with fish body oils b/c it "wouldn't go rancid once in the body".  Well, technically, that might be true.  But, according to the article, it does "use" available Vit E, which then wouldn't be around for another purpose.  So, I do think I will supplement just a bit of Vit. E.

So, I think a little is fine, a lot is not. But, that's just my opinion. And I admit to still learning, but that's where I stand with what I know now.

 
  I agree that it's good to take the conservative approach to supplements and I wouldn't supplement vitamin E without some guidelines from a reliable source.

Jessies mom... i told them (on the dachsie board I go on) about how people here say you need E with fish oil. One person's vet said it isn't necessary, and one person contacted Grizzly who said the way it is made has E in it, so no need to supplement. I am all sorts of confused because if I don't need to add another thing, I'd be thrilled, but if I need to, I can. The people have been doing grizzly for a long time with very healthy pups.

 
   I don't know enough to say if Grizzly salmon oil has enough vitamin E ; hopefully someone else will come along who knows more.

I've been giving Wild Alaskan Salmon oil which is made by the same company that makes Grizzly.  I haven't started giving Vitamin E.  Mainly, because I'm just not convinced it's necessary.  I see that study that was posted, used only 40 men??  And, it seems that I read a different reason why it's necessary depending on what site I look at.  One site stated it's needed because the fish oil will go bad inside the body?? 
 
I had two vets one a dermatologist and our regular vet prescribe DermCaps and regular fish oil caps and I've always been told to add Vitamin A for skin health but never E???
 
Anyone, have any more solid information? 
 
Thanks.

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

So if Zoe is 10 lbs., and I am going to start 1 squirt of Grizzly salmon oil a day, she only needs about 40-50 i.u. of vit. e a day? I know many who give their dachsies grizzly and no E... is it because it is such a little amount it doesn't matter? Also, does the salmon oil need to be refridgerated all the time or only after exp. date.

I love Zoe's pictures. I follow Monica Segal's  [linkhttp://www.monicasegal.com/]http://www.monicasegal.com/[/link]  guidelines for the amount of vitamin E to supplement;  for dogs weighing 10 to 15 lbs., she recommends 50 to 100 IU daily, which is the same amount sooner recommends. Maybe the owners who don't add vitamin E don't know it's important.

 
Jessie's mom - I didnt' know they needed vitamin E either.  I've had sooo many people on the rottie forum I'm on tell me that I needed to supplement with salmon oil, but none of them ever mentioned vitamin E!!   Thankfully I just started the salmon oil so I can grab some vitamin E on my way home from work this afternoon.
 
I'm so glad I read this post!  Thanks ! ! !

Willowchow, Ditto to what you said!

The food and nutrition board recommends the following for Vit E in HUMANS (daily requirements) 
 
Adult Women     12 IU's or 8mg
Adult Male          15 IU's or 10mg
 
I wonder why dogs need a lot more than humans do.  I supplement with fish oil and a daily Vitamin which contains only 2 IU's of Vit E.  I guess I will pick up 100 IU Vit E tablets
 
 

GRNROM,
 
I don't know of any reason for dogs to need more than we do.  However, I think the nutrition boards recommendations are based on survival rates, and not opitimal health.  My personal preference for a 150 lb. person would be 200 IU's daily.  I would use less on my dogs b/c they weigh less.
 
Right now I am giving a pet supplement made by a company(Thorne Research) that maufactures people grade vitamins/minerals.  I am doing  a home cooked food elimination diet, so I have to use this.  Based on what their directions are, it would be 50 IU's for each 25 lbs. of weight (per day)---- which would be equilivant to 300 IU's for a 150 lb. person.     But, this is for an animal that is not getting any kibble or other fortified meals, at all.  So, for those giving kibble, well then, they are already getting some amounts of Vit. E, so this much wouldn't be necessary.

I'm stunned by the HUGE difference in even the dosing. . .someone suggested 50 IU's for a 10 lb dog and someone else said they are using 200 IU's for a 100 lbs dog NOT being fed kibble.   I think this needs to be sorted out. . .

Wendy Volhard, "holistic guide for a healthy dog",  gives foods for breakfast and dinner that have Vit. E content.  She also supplements with 100 IU's per 25 lbs.    * Don't forget to give Vit. K foods as well.
 
edited to add:  But, this is for homecooked meals.  A lot of people are just adding the oil, and wanting to supplement for this purpose only.  So,  then you have to think about how much is already in the kibble.  Who knows how much Vit E. is added to their kibble.  So, you would have to figure out how much you thought was an appropriate amount, then subtract the amount already in kibble.
 
I guess there's just not an easy way to figure this out.

This is interesting, but also a little confusing...right now I'm trying to figure out how much to give my chihuahua (he's 3 lbs.), and I'm thinking, based on the guidelines given by Monica Segal, that maybe something like 20-25 IU's would be okay.  Does that sound about right?  He's so small that I'm afraid of really screwing him up if I give too much or too little...

Wow,   no offense here, but 3 lbs. is practically nothing.
 
I assume he is being fed a fortified canned or kibble. Really, he might already be getting all he needs in his foods.  There was a good study listed here about the need for Vit. E with fish oil, but you know how studies generally go.  Eventually, you will get contradictory evidence.  So, I tend to just try and keep to the middle ground on most supplements. At 3 lbs, and if he is getting a top quality food, then it may not need to be something to worry about.
 
 I've already stated how I feel about this, so I guess this should be my last post.  But, at 3 lbs. I, personally, wouldn't give that much.  I wouldn't give it daily, for sure.  I never want to give my guys too much oil at a time b/c I don't want to set off a pancreatic attack.  Every dog is different.  But, at 3 lbs., I personally would be scared to do more than a few drops.  I think I might only give a tad of something only twice a week. I have built up to giving my girl 1/2 tsp of oil twice a day on her all homecooked allergy diet -no fortified, bought foods, and the meat she gets is not fatty - but she also weighs 32 lbs.   I'm sorry, I've never had a dog that small, so all I can really say is to be careful and maybe only give a little fish oil and vit. E a couple times a week.???   Or, gee, I hate to say this.....but, maybe don't even worry about giving supplements at all.   *****  ok,  I'm ducking and running now.  Just a thought at how frustrating this is, and how much more frustrating it must be for such a tiny dog.   I mean, I feel like larger dogs might have more leeway than such a tiny dog.  That really does seem a lot tougher! 
 
 I know larger dogs need it because it helps with the bone and hip athritis problems that they have due to their weight.    Not being sarcastic here, but I'm thinking such a small dog probably wouldn't have as much a need.  So, if the incident of hip dysplesia and such is less in smaller dogs, then in a toy dog would it be as needed to do this supplementation??
 
Hopefully someone else will come on here with more solid advice.