grains vs potatoes

ORIGINAL: papillon806

Also, Cows do not sythesize or metabolize fiber.  In fact, fiber is the completely indigestable part of the plant.  They get their nutrients from the digestable parts of the plant.  The indigestable fiber is what helps move everything along that loooong herbivore digestive tract, so that the nutrients from the rest of the stuff can get absorbed.

Actually, cows DO metabolize fiber via the microbial action in the rumen. For cows, fiber is VERY digestible; it has nothing to do with "moving it through the digestive tract" like in monogastrics.  These microbial proteins produce waste products called VFA's (volatile fatty acids) from fiber.  These particular bacteria that digest fiber are known as "feed adherent" bacteria because they have to colonize the fiber particle and then digest it.  The VFA's produced by the bacteria from the fiber produce a cow's main energy source. 

Excuse me, I stand corrected about cows, they are ruminants.  My original point regarding fiber was that animals with short digestive tracts do not need fiber in the same way that those with long digestive tracts - who are either digesting the fiber or need it to move the food through the intestinal tract.  Besides, most dry kibbles have way more fiber in them than a dog would ever need just by the grains alone.

Excuse me, I stand corrected about cows, they are ruminants.  My original point regarding fiber was that animals with short digestive tracts do not need fiber in the same way that those with long digestive tracts - who are either digesting the fiber or need it to move the food through the intestinal tract.  Besides, most dry kibbles have way more fiber in them than a dog would ever need just by the grains alone.

I didn't mean any harm by it, I just wanted to clarify since what you said was false...

You stated above that animals other than dogs (with long GI tracts) need fiber to help "move it along."  That is the point of fiber for dogs...that is the case for ALL monogastrics (it just isn't the case for ruminants).  I do agree with you that many dog foods contain more fiber than needed, but it doesn't mean fiber (through any source; grains or whatever) isn't necessary. 

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Dog food is DOG FOOD people, I cannot understand for the life of me why some people act like we're debating abortion or the death penalty.  I wonder if there's a knitting forum somewhere and people are arguing like idiots over which brand of yarn should be used for a baby blanket..

Isn't the purpose of this forum to educate and share ideas?? 
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I cannot believe I would even have to explain myself for stating that dogs don't need grain and they are not a natural food- neither are potatoes and tapioca.  
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 I wasn't stating opinions in my posts, I was stating facts.  Try looking up carbohydrate requirements in the Merck manual and get back to me.

And yet another thread gets nasty......
 
Yes Bob, dogs can chew bones up to the point of them firming the stool.  This is why raw poop is so very much different than kibble or cooked poop...tends to be much smaller, much firmer and will often turn white in a day or two and just disappear.  I make this statement based on my own personal experience only.
 
I don't like, nor use white potatoes in my homecooked.  They are primarily sugars and don't add much of anything good to the diet.  Sweet potatoes on the other hand have a lower glycemic index and all those good vitamins, minerals and antioxidents.  Yes, I know that if I go to a potato website I can find all sorts of values to the white tater......I just prefer the sweets.  That isn't to say that I never eat a white tater....I do and I enjoy them within certain limits.  But the carb source in my homecooked is ALWAYS sweets.
 
I used to use up to 4 oz of brown rice in my 20 qt pot of homecooked....I don't anymore.  If I need something to thicken the pot because I got distracted and added more water than I should have, I use oats, which I've read are one of the MOST digestable grains.
 
Given a choice, I would far rather feed a kibble with sweet taters than with grains.
 
Disclaimer: I haven't spent years in formal nutrition education.  I read a lot, and yes, some of it is on the internet because its much handier to pull articles up online than to schlep to the library.

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Now excuse me while I go knit my blanket and wait for the next post...

I haven't read all the posts[]  I will say one thing tho, for myself I don't feel the grain free foods are a marketing scam...It's quite expensive and harder to make a kibble with no grains and higher protein...plus,you need something for the protein to bind with in order to make a kibble.
 
Personally, I have found a huge difference in my Rottweiler with HD since I switched her to grain free Nature's Variety Raw Instinct.  We just recently switched Dilon our Newf with Elbow Dysplasia on to this food as well and are noticing a huge improvement in him as well.  I am very pleased with the health of my dogs and the improvement I've seen in their physical well being. 
 
All dogs seem to do better on some foods than others.  For me, the grain free has been amazing for the health of my dogs with arthritis[]

FIRST WARNING!
I've edited previous posts due to "personal" feelings/content/attacks...keep the conversation on fact or experience or the next personal expression will result in a three day time out

question for those who use or are trying out grain free kibbles - now all kibbles need a large component to be a carb in order to make them kibbles, and the grain free formulas seem to use potatoes instead of the grains. Now why are potatoes better than grains? They are starchy carbohydrates, certainly not a meat or veggie.

Well, feasibly if one had a dog that was specifically allergic to grains, a grain free kibble (using potatoes) would be a fantastic option. I'm feeding TWO's Ocean Blue to one of my Border Collies at the moment, and she's doing fantastic on it. The first ing. is a fish meal, 2nd whole fish, 3rd potatoes, 4th oil. When you factor in the weight of the potatoes once the water is removed, I would imagine it amounts to little more than just a binder. I'd prefer it be sweet potato though. []

I don't know that potatoes are any better than grains, unless your dog is gluten sensitive, or grain sensitive.

There's the age old debate about carbs vs. no carbs vs. types of carbs. Not even going to go there. My philosophy is that my dog is looking fantastic on it, and I'm happy.

there's also no proof that they don't need it.

 
there are large numbers of people who feed their dogs a completely fiber-free raw diet, and these dogs sure don't seem to need fiber. If you have ever seen a poop from a dog fed a fiber-free diet and compared it to a poop from a dog fed grains, you'd definitely prefer to pick up the fiber-free one.

When I feed raw meals I use potatoes or rice. Ideally it would be sweet potatoes but I have yet to find a source for sweet potatoes by the sack (though I did pass a place on the way to the landfill that said 'home grown sweet potatoes' - one of those roadside produce places. I don't know that they need it or not, but there it is. 

Paula

I give mine white potatoes rarely, but they get sweet potatoes very often and they just love them. 

Paula! Try the farmers markets for those sweet potatoes! It may be too late however. But in the fall you might find sweet potatoes in the markets - by the CASE. They are a spring product in warmer climates, come to think of it, and year round in more tropical areas (like FL). I got a case last year (a farmer I did a survey with, gave it to me). I kept the taters in the basement and they lasted all winter.

I think of it this way - maybe it's my livestock training but I have to use this pyramid to prioritize things. First, animals need ENERGY. I have to get an appropriate amount of energy into my dogs so they can maintain their health and perform, and I have to balance this with my household budget. Ideally they'd get almost all their energy from protein and fat, but I've found my guys will literally eat us out of house and home if I tried this. I do have two dogs, though, who follow this plan now - both very easy keepers. For the others, carbs are a much cheaper form of energy.

So, what kind of carbs? Ben can't have grains of any kind - rice, quinoa, barley, oats, I've tried them all. He absolutely thrives on white potatoes. He's more iffy on sweet potatoes, I don't know why - maybe it's the thyroid thing. So, for him, sweet potatoes and white potatoes - but especially white - are best and must be a staple of his diet. For variety's sake I also throw in green peas and a few other novel carbs but again I face financial contraints when feeding the Bottomless Pit. Ben stays on a diet that is about 35% protein, 20% fat. Within the bounds of what he CAN eat, I have to go to the third tier of nutritional priority - balancing micronutrients. With Ben I do a lot of this balancing through supplements.

The other guys have no constraints and I can have a lot of fun with them. Besides their raw meaty bones, I give them oats, rice, cereal flakes, whole wheat pasta, potatoes of course, yams, peas, barley, and even honey and molasses. Yogurt and cottage cheese also have a good bit of carbs too. And they get a little kibble, too. Now I start mixing and matching foods to provide proper nutrients while offering plenty of variety from meal to meal and week to week.

So for me it's a matter of balancing what is ideal with what I can provide - it's most important that they get the energy they need, in a form that will do them the most good.

Jenny cd- you are right about there being gluten-free grains, I was generalizing with that statement, sorry.

I'm learning about gluten free foods, and what's "acceptable" and not, for a gluten free diet. I'm really interested in trying it, which is the only reason I even thought about it. All things start with the dogs[] It's pretty bad, but their diet is always a step or two ahead of mine!

Sweet potatos may be low in glycogen, but they have a fair amount of oxalic acid, which is important to know if your dog has a tendency to have kidney stones.

It's also important if your pet suffers from arthritis.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

Sweet potatos may be low in glycogen, but they have a fair amount of oxalic acid, which is important to know if your dog has a tendency to have kidney stones.

It's also important if your pet suffers from arthritis.

Huh! You learn something new every day. Maybe I will stick to white potatoes in my raw meals then because old bitch Nandi (about 11) is definitely stiffening up. Or at least use white potatoes for her.

Paula