grains vs potatoes

[align=center]Collagen is a fibrous connective tissue that acts as a fiber in the dog's digestive system.[align=center] [align=center]The quotes below are from the following website:[align=center][link>http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/bonecomp.html]http://www.thepetcenter.com/xra/bonecomp.html[/link][align=center] [align=center] [align=center][font=arial][color=#000000][size=2]

[align=center][font=arial][color=#000000][size=2]Cartilage is 50 percent collagen (a poorly digestible fibrous connective tissue) and mucopolysaccharides which are chains of glucose molecules in combination with mucous.
(Dry weight basis)

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30 to 35% of bone is composed of organic material (on a dry weight basis).  Of this amount nearly 95 % is a substance called collagen. Collagen is a fibrous protein.  It is poorly digested by the dog and cat. 

[align=center] [align=center]Grains are most definitely "non-beneficial".  Sure they are used as fiber sources, but they are inferior to sources of fiber that dogs evolved to eat.[align=center]Dogs eating grain is about as beneficial as people eating candy.[align=center] [align=center]Oops, I meant to not post anymore after that last post, but your whole dramatic "HUH?" about the bones made me want to explain that to you.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Dogs can get fiber from fruit, vegetables, and raw bone

Huh??

I've never heard that bones provide dietary fiber [&:]

 
Raw bone will do the same thing as fiber, it firms up the stool.  I notice this when I feed my dog raw with ground bone or a raw meaty bone, her stools are nice and firm, but they are runny if she just eats the meat.  This is probably the most natural way that dogs get their stool firm, since they are designed to eat bone along with the meat, rather than large amounts of grain and beet pulp.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

Dogs have trouble digesting grains. They seem to digest potatoes quite well. So if you feed a food that has a lot of grain in it, the dog is probably not getting the nutrients you think you are offering.
my dogs are gassy when fed grains, even over-cooked rice. They are not gassy on potatoes, sweet or white. Mind you, I would never feed a diet that contained A LOT of potatoes. Like some of these allergy formulas that have "potato" as the first ingredient.

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ORIGINAL: jenns

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Dogs can get fiber from fruit, vegetables, and raw bone

Huh??

I've never heard that bones provide dietary fiber [&:]

Raw bone will do the same thing as fiber, it firms up the stool.  I notice this when I feed my dog raw with ground bone or a raw meaty bone, her stools are nice and firm, but they are runny if she just eats the meat.  This is probably the most natural way that dogs get their stool firm, since they are designed to eat bone along with the meat, rather than large amounts of grain and beet pulp.

You are telling me that a dog can chew a bone to the point where it acts like fiber?  Don't think so......

Raw bone will do the same thing as fiber, it firms up the stool. I notice this when I feed my dog raw with ground bone or a raw meaty bone, her stools are nice and firm, but they are runny if she just eats the meat. This is probably the most natural way that dogs get their stool firm, since they are designed to eat bone along with the meat, rather than large amounts of grain and beet pulp.

 
While bone (or collagen) may be somewhat fiberous, it's not considered dietary fiber. It does "firm up" the stool due to the large amount of minerals, but don't think it regulates bowel transit time OR water absorbtion in the colon. I guess if your talking bone "hard" poops, then yeah, it firms up the stool, but dietary fiber is so much more than a stool-firmer-upper []

You can rationalize all day, but that doesn't change the fact.

So I guess my "rationalization" of 8 years of school in animal science and companion animal nutrition doesn't merit anything to your "petcenter.com" articles....

I cannot believe how many people believe everything they read on the internet....."oooo angelianwolf.com said this...that MUST be right"

All grains do not contain gluten. Rice, quinoa, and quite a few other grains are gluten free.

 
 Jennie's right; millet and buckwheat don't have gluten either, and white rice is very easy to digest and good for firming the stool, which is good to know if your dog has loose stools and eats a food that contains wheat or corn. Jessie has firmer stools on foods with rice than she does on foods with corn. Sweet potatos may be low in glycogen, but they have a fair amount of oxalic acid, which is important to know if your dog has a tendency to have kidney stones.

I would never feed a diet that contained A LOT of potatoes. Like some of these allergy formulas that have "potato" as the first ingredient.

 
Since potatoes are largely composed of water (like whole meat) so if potatoes are the first ingredient by weight and a meat meal is the second ingredient is it not like the meat meal is the primary ingredient?  After all they don't say dehydrated potatoes are the primary ingredient.  Solid Gold Barking At The Moon lists potato protein in the top four ingredients (after potatoes). 
 
I'm asking for the sake of discussion.  My choice in kibble is the higher protein stuff (but not Barking at this time).

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

dietary fiber is so much more than a stool-firmer-upper []

 
For human beings, yes .Carnivores don#%92t require fiber to help move food through their short digestive tracts. Animals with long digestive tracts (ie humans, horses, cows etc...)require dietary fiber to move food through their long digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food.

ORIGINAL: Bobsk8

ORIGINAL: jenns

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Dogs can get fiber from fruit, vegetables, and raw bone

Huh??

I've never heard that bones provide dietary fiber [&:]

Raw bone will do the same thing as fiber, it firms up the stool.  I notice this when I feed my dog raw with ground bone or a raw meaty bone, her stools are nice and firm, but they are runny if she just eats the meat.  This is probably the most natural way that dogs get their stool firm, since they are designed to eat bone along with the meat, rather than large amounts of grain and beet pulp.

You are telling me that a dog can chew a bone to the point where it acts like fiber?  Don't think so......

 
have you ever given your dog a raw meaty bone?

Bob, dogs don't chew, [] 

For human beings, yes .Carnivores don#%92t require fiber to help move food through their short digestive tracts.

 
While there's not been any hard science to prove a dietary requirement, there's also no proof that they don't need it. Also, carnivores (I'll speak specifically here by saying cats) do eat fiberous plant matter. They get it in a couple of different ways. First off, in the belly contents of their (normally) herbivorous prey and secondly by eating grasses. All cats practice self grooming and allogrooming (grooming members of their "pride" or family unit). This grooming habit means they ingest large amounts of hair and that can cause digestive blockages, which can be difficult to pass. The grasses that cats ingest serve the purpose of helping to move the "hairballs" that they don't hack up, through their GIT. ALL cats do this, from domestic cats to lions and tigers. Dogs, OTOH, are not obligate carnivores (but that's another topic). They are scavengers that can "make a living" on a wide range of foods. Dogs "graze" all the time and there are many theories about why they do it, one of which is that they are not getting ample fiber in their diet or need additional fiber due to system upset.
 
Cows eat fiber because they are bulk feeding ruminants and have a very efficient GIT. They are able to utilize, synthesize, and metabolize everything they need from fiber. Horses are pseudoruminants (like rabbits) with a very LARGE cecum and are able to ingest large amounts of "graze" but do also need some grains for their protein requirements. Horses and rabbits have very insufficient GIT's and rabbits, in fact, practice corophagy (nutrient recycling) in order to meet their dietary requirements. They are  all HERBIVORES.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

For human beings, yes .Carnivores don't require fiber to help move food through their short digestive tracts.

While there's not been any hard science to prove a dietary requirement, there's also no proof that they don't need it. Also, carnivores (I'll speak specifically here by saying cats) do eat fiberous plant matter. They get it in a couple of different ways. First off, in the belly contents of their (normally) herbivorous prey and secondly by eating grasses. All cats practice self grooming and allogrooming (grooming members of their "pride" or family unit). This grooming habit means they ingest large amounts of hair and that can cause digestive blockages, which can be difficult to pass. The grasses that cats ingest serve the purpose of helping to move the "hairballs" that they don't hack up, through their GIT. ALL cats do this, from domestic cats to lions and tigers. Dogs, OTOH, are not obligate carnivores (but that's another topic). They are scavengers that can "make a living" on a wide range of foods. Dogs "graze" all the time and there are many theories about why they do it, one of which is that they are not getting ample fiber in their diet or need additional fiber due to system upset.

Cows eat fiber because they are bulk feeding ruminants and have a very efficient GIT. They are able to utilize, synthesize, and metabolize everything they need from fiber. Horses are pseudoruminants (like rabbits) with a very LARGE cecum and are able to ingest large amounts of "graze" but do also need some grains for their protein requirements. Horses and rabbits have very insufficient GIT's and rabbits, in fact, practice corophagy (nutrient recycling) in order to meet their dietary requirements. They are  all HERBIVORES.

 
Well, since cats and dogs often vomit after they ingest large amounts of grass, it probably doesn't even end up making it to the intestinal tract most of the time. It is often theorized that they will eat grass in ORDER to vomit to they can cough up the hairball or whatever is upsetting their stomach.
 
Also, Cows do not sythesize or metabolize fiber.  In fact, fiber is the completely indigestable part of the plant.  They get their nutrients from the digestable parts of the plant.  The indigestable fiber is what helps move everything along that loooong herbivore digestive tract, so that the nutrients from the rest of the stuff can get absorbed.

Also, Cows do not sythesize or metabolize fiber.  In fact, fiber is the completely indigestable part of the plant.  They get their nutrients from the digestable parts of the plant.  The indigestable fiber is what helps move everything along that loooong herbivore digestive tract, so that the nutrients from the rest of the stuff can get absorbed.

Actually, cows DO metabolize fiber via the microbial action in the rumen. For cows, fiber is VERY digestible; it has nothing to do with "moving it through the digestive tract" like in monogastrics.  These microbial proteins produce waste products called VFA's (volatile fatty acids) from fiber.  These particular bacteria that digest fiber are known as "feed adherent" bacteria because they have to colonize the fiber particle and then digest it.  The VFA's produced by the bacteria from the fiber produce a cow's main energy source. 

 Jana