New High Protein Kibbles; Good for Your Dog?

Ok, so figure if I'm lucky, each hunting season I make about 20 trips in the field with my dog to hunt birds. What's the rest of the year like...couch potato. Now, that is an extremely light schedule for an working birddog. I do the best I can as time allows.

 
Poor dog, only 20 days in the field. So, 20 days in the field, 365 days in a year is equal to about 6% of it's year is spent actively working. That hardly equates to a working dog.
 
My dogs schedules looks like this:
Trail season starts in August and runs thru April. My dogs get out in the field (conditioning) 3 days a week for approximately 2 1/2 hours each time. May thru July they may get out once a week due to heat and breeding season of rabbits, for about 1 1/2 hours (depending on heat) This does not include actual trials which can be 4 - 8 per year. This means that my dogs are working in the field 124 days (approx. 34%) a year or 294 hours.
They would eat everything given to them and get FAT and then couldn't do the work they are intended to do. I have to carefully monitor their intake to make sure that they don't over eat. A couple of extra pounds on my hounds means less energy, less muscle tone, and less stamina. They are not good at self-regulating, because to them, it's feast or famine (in their minds). During hard working times, their diet is increased with added protein, fat, and carbs according to activity level. Believe me, they eat it ALL and want more.
 
I just don't buy your feed makers theory that dogs WON"T overeat and get fat because, personally, I have seen it with my own dogs.
 
As stated previously, the food intake is regulated by hormones and neuropeptids and while it's supposed to work, some breeds levels are off. Yes, a dog does eat to meet it's energy requirement, but that does NOT mean that they always know what that requirement is!
 

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ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

If they were left to hunt on their own, they would probably NOT get the amount of grains (and other carbs) in their diet as kibble fed dogs, BUT they would also not live as long in the wild.
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I pose to you the same question for JoJo.  Where is the minimum daily requirement for Carbs listed?  I can't find it anywhere?

 
No specific requirement for carbs has been determined, but that does not mean that carbs are not beneficial.

ORIGINAL: cc431

I think the principles apply to all dogs, including those chow hound labs.  My 12 Yorkie does fine on the same feed as my Setter.

This is what my dogs hunting schedule looks like. Small game season goes from 3rd Sat in Oct to second Sat in Jan.  That would equal 13 Saturdays in a row out hunting.  Through in a one week November vacation (next week...yea) so tack on another 4 days out of that week in the field.  Up to 17 so far...Now figure say at least 3 days hunting in areas known as "Preserves" (300 acres+) which have extended seasons, their season ends sometime in March.  Ok, so figure if I'm lucky, each hunting season I make about 20 trips in the field with my dog to hunt birds.  What's the rest of the year like...couch potato.  Now, that is an extremely light schedule for an working birddog.  I do the best I can as time allows.

Overriding point here folks is both my dogs, the Field Setter and Yorkie consume the same food (almost 800 Cals per cup),
and despite some periods of increase work, my dog will regulate her own intake!  I noticed she will eat slightly more during the periods of work, but not much.  If she eats a cup per day, then maybe she consumes 1.3 cups on days after working.  The increase is not much at all.  When I notice the bowl is empty I replenish and they consume their food at their leisure, whenever they desire.

I know it may be hard to believe dogs only consume what is needed accordingly to their caloric intake needs and they do not get fat from an over-ingestion of caloires...but yet I witness it everyday...it's hard to explain.

Anyway, I think they same would hold true for high protein kibbles assuming they are structured properly, they include by-products to ensure animal source protein is adequate and it is low carb/fiber.  It has to hold true, it is logical. If I fed my Yorkie 1 cup per day of Kibbles and Bits, I would only need 1/5 a cup or less of sleddog feed per day.  The better it is, the less they need, it does not mean automatic weight gain IMO.

i am glad this system works for you. however, i do not think this is the norm. what in your opinion is causing obesity in dogs? i realize lack of exercise is part of the equation. but by your contention are you saying if a dog is exercising less they will make up for it by eating less?

If I let my girls eat all they want to, they would be blimps.  Buck isn't so bad.  My dad's pointers and English setters were often hunted 7 days a week up to 6 hours a day as kinfolks used them when we weren't.  They did eat far more during hunting season than during the rest of the year, but I think that should be expected with the hours they were in the field.  I don't know that they were self regulating calories, etc, but I do know they did eat less out of hunting season. I just figured this normal.

ORIGINAL: sandra_slayton

If I let my girls eat all they want to, they would be blimps.  Buck isn't so bad.  My dad's pointers and English setters were often hunted 7 days a week up to 6 hours a day as kinfolks used them when we weren't.  They did eat far more during hunting season than during the rest of the year, but I think that should be expected with the hours they were in the field.  I don't know that they were self regulating calories, etc, but I do know they did eat less out of hunting season. I just figured this normal.

LOL[]

I don't know if you all say my post about Joey eating my Redbarn Samples, but I work in pet product sales.  I am sent samples all the time, most of which I store in my car, but I no longer have room in my car, so we attempt to store them away from Joey in our office, but with little success. 

Last week he ate all of this in one night...
2 Redbarn Cheese Burger Patties
2 full 12 oz packages of Redbarn Lamb Lung
The cheese filling inside a cowhoof.

A couple days ago he ate
2 big Foppers Gourmet Cookies (good thing they are yogurt covered).  My fault, I left them on the floor.

He also gets into the garbage because that is where we through out the empty cat food cans. 

Willow is very self regulating.  She will eat until she is full and if that means leaving some food in her bowl she will.  Also, if she's not feeling especially hungry she won't eat and that includes treats.  She's not the type of dog that will just eat because food is there. 

He also gets into the garbage because that is where we through out the empty cat food cans.

 
Sounds just like my Honey girl.  I mean KayCee will eat every morsel in her dish and check out the others and if you drop something on the floor she is on it like a chicken on a june bug.  But Honey goes to extremes.  She tries to lick dishes as i put them in the dish washer, she will steal anything she can get off the counter, and a couple of times has stollen fried pork chops (boneless) and fish i have fried for my hubby to take on the road with him.  Each time I thought I had put them far enough batck where she couldn't reach them, but that stink pot has learned to lean kinda sideways so her arm will reach an inch or two more onto the counter and uses her foot to pull things over.  She also gets into the garbage every chance she gets...which is very seldom.  I keep it in closet with door shut, but sometimes when grandkids are here they don't shut it good when they toss a napkin, etc.

The % of protein is really irrelevant when it comes right down to it. We should really keep in mind that it's all about the amino acids (since these are the buidling blocks of protein). Regardless of the "amount" of protein, it's what available IN the proteins used in the food.  Bioavailability of the proteins and which amino acids they contain are what's ultimately important in the diet.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

That's what I've been saying as well.  Crude protein (such as from corn or potatoes) versus animal source which is much more digestible for canines.
 
I've exchanged a couple of e-mails with Nature's Logic.  They strive for > 55% animal ingredients in their canine kibble.  My dog was bitching at them for the naming of their Duck & Salmon (okay it was me []).  They say their animal source ingredients percentage is more than twice what most other kibbles use so even though they use chicken with the duck (which I told them was unusual in premium kibble) it has at least as much duck as the other duck kibbles.
 
Nature's Logic's philosophy is that virtually all other dog food manufacturers add chemically synthesized vitamins and minerals to their foods but they use only natural ingredients containing those vitamins and minerals and therefore they are more likely properly digested or excreted (if in excess). 
 
They fall into the high protein kibble category.  Their fat level (15%) is lower than Evo (22%) and Timberwolf Wild & Natural (18%).  Their price compares favorably with the other high protein kibbles.  Evo RF is in a category of its own.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

My dogs schedules looks like this:
Trail season starts in August and runs thru April. My dogs get out in the field (conditioning) 3 days a week for approximately 2 1/2 hours each time. May thru July they may get out once a week due to heat and breeding season of rabbits, for about 1 1/2 hours (depending on heat) This does not include actual trials which can be 4 - 8 per year. This means that my dogs are working in the field 124 days (approx. 34%) a year or 294 hours. 

 
Quit rubbing it in,  I feel bad enough as it is I can't hunt more often!  I'm working M-F, Sunday hunting is illegal (non-preserve), Sat is the only day I can get out there outside of vacation week, sick days, etc.  I do the best I can with what time and schedule will allow.  Now when she was a pup obviously there was a lot more working time with training and such.  I had the quail pen in the backyard for a stretch, etc.  I also do some conditioning time prior to hunting season which I didn't calculate into field time.   A few good blasts in the field prior to the opening day is important.
 
So are you strictly field trial or are you hunting your dogs?   I've hunted with my friends beagles before, they're a lot of fun.
Standing around in the field while the dogs are pushing the game back to you is nice, lot less walking!  You can take them 364 days a year, but they ain't really working unless they can get on scent every time...then you're probably lucky to get em' back in 2 1/2 hours!
 
So I asked my friend with the beagles about this dogs bloody tails?  He's say they get like that from the brush because they can get into some pretty thick stuff.  Once it starts its hard to stop when regularly hunting the dog and off season is when the tails usually clean up.  But out there in Western PA, from what I understand they say you ain't working them hard enough if they don't have bloody tails.
 
If your still with me, here's were it gets interesting.  Despite the Beagle Club workouts whenever he wants, despite regular small game season rabbit hunting, despite more than seemingly enough exercise, he still has two chubby beagles that look like little footballs chugging around because of cheap commercial kibble.  He's buys some crap which is like $15.99 for 60 pounds.
It's all in the food my friend.  My dogs are lean, fit, muscular, and eating what most would consider a high calorie feed, on little exercise.
 
 


 

My sister in NC has a beagle named Jazz, but she turned into a butterball and they started calling her Butter Beagle.   She is about the same age is my Buck, almost 12.  She developed arthritis when she was about 7.  I don't which diet food they put her on, but did pull all the extra weight off her and she has not put it back on and can to up and down steps now.  Also they no longer feed her left over biscuits, mashed potates loaded with butter, pancakes loaded with butter and syrup, etc. I think that was the biggest part of her problem.

ORIGINAL: willowchow

Willow is very self regulating.  She will eat until she is full and if that means leaving some food in her bowl she will.  Also, if she's not feeling especially hungry she won't eat and that includes treats.  She's not the type of dog that will just eat because food is there. 

 
I just noticed my bowl was getting low, so I dumped in about 1.5 cups worth of product.  They didn't go running over to it to eat, but it's there when they want it.  I free feed in a true sense, there is always food available when desired in there bowls.  They make there own schedule.  I know it sounds strange and not recommended by some but it's been working for them.
 
I made sure last Fri the bowl was full (both share one bowl) and full bowl of water.  She didn't eat that night nor in the morning.
We then when hunting.  She put in about 3 solid hours of tracking, both in tall grass and along wood line.  River runs close so she could drink when needed.  Came across a rooster and hen that day with and some nice solid points.  You think my dog was hungry and ready to eat when we got home?  Nope.

Ours were always hungry when we came in, but we were usually out at least 5 or 6 hours.  We were dragging butt, but the dogs were still strong.

Crude protein (such as from corn or potatoes) versus animal source which is much more digestible for canines.

 
Crude protein is NOT defined this way. It is the TOTAL nitrogen (x a factor, whatever) of a food mix, but does not distinquish between animal and lant proteins, and non-protein sources.
 
ORIGINAL: cc431

  So are you strictly field trial or are you hunting your dogs?   I've hunted with my friends beagles before, they're a lot of fun.
Standing around in the field while the dogs are pushing the game back to you is nice, lot less walking!  You can take them 364 days a year, but they ain't really working unless they can get on scent every time...then you're probably lucky to get em' back in 2 1/2 hours!

 
 
I only do field trials, but a good friend of mine does take my dogs out with his to hunt during hunting season. Being a wildlife rehabber, I can't bring myself to shoot an animal unless it's to end it's suffering (even then it's a hard decision). My dogs get their work outs in one of 2 50 acre enclosures or we run in the "wild" and they do get a work out on wild bunnies. It's not unusual for them to circle the rabbit for an hour straight (or longer) before losing it and jumping another. [][]
 

ORIGINAL: cc431
If your still with me, here's were it gets interesting.  Despite the Beagle Club workouts whenever he wants, despite regular small game season rabbit hunting, despite more than seemingly enough exercise, he still has two chubby beagles that look like little footballs chugging around because of cheap commercial kibble.  He's buys some crap which is like $15.99 for 60 pounds.
It's all in the food my friend.  My dogs are lean, fit, muscular, and eating what most would consider a high calorie feed, on little exercise.

Alot of the beaglers I know, don't have a clue about nutrition. Most feed really low end foods because they are cheap. I feed EP Natural to my beagles (I buy it in 50lb bags) and it gets pretty costly when you consider that I'm feeding 10 beagles, but they would get fat if they over-ate.  Even with all the exercise they get, they can still pack on pounds if I don't monitor their intake.
While I do believe that some foods have a tendency to increase a dogs chances of gaining weight, I think that if you are feeding correctly, it shouldn't be an issue. BUT, if you are feeding a truely poor quality, high carb diet, you could end up with weight issues. These poor quality feeds require a dog to eat 2 - 3 x's more to meet the energy requirement, plus they tend to have more simple carbs with if not used for immediate energy (since they are quickly absorbed into the body) are stored as fat.
Then there's genetics. Some breeds or bloodlines carry the genetics that can predispose a dog to be fat (just like humans) or expose them to health related conditions that can cause obesity (diabetes).
It's not all about the food, but overeating does cause many dogs to gain weight, regardless of the quality the of kibble. Even EVO and those other grain-frees can cause dogs to be overweight if they eat to much.
 

the only dogs I've ever met that "self regulated" their food intake absolutely HATED their kibble and only ate out of despair. Most dogs eat as much as is available, and lay down fat stores if possible in case of hard times in future.
 
don't hunters train and exercise their dogs during the off-season? If you let your dog lie around doing nothing all winter, spring, and fall, your dog is going to be worthless when hunting season rolls around.

Crude protein is NOT defined this way. It is the TOTAL nitrogen (x a factor, whatever) of a food mix, but does not distinquish between animal and plant proteins, and non-protein sources.

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

Crude protein (such as from corn or potatoes) versus animal source which is much more digestible for canines.

ORIGINAL: DakotasDoode

Crude protein is NOT defined this way. It is the TOTAL nitrogen (x a factor, whatever) of a food mix, but does not distinquish between animal and lant proteins, and non-protein sources.

I was not trying to provide a textbook definition.  Though I could have been slightly clearer, I was making a "gross figure they can stick on the label" versus "efficiently usable animal source" protein argument.
 
 

don't hunters train and exercise their dogs during the off-season? If you let your dog lie around doing nothing all winter, spring, and fall, your dog is going to be worthless when hunting season rolls around.

 
Mine are worked all year 'round, but not as hard in the heat of the summer!
 
There would be no reason for me to even take them to trials if they didn't. They would look like litte tootsie rolls with legs and wouldn't be able to chase a chicken around the house, lol.