New High Protein Kibbles; Good for Your Dog?

I'm beginning to learn that most high protein kibbles are not only unnecessary but seem to be damaging as well. I mean, as a stand alone food, that is.
With the high protein foods usually a high ash content comes into play. I don't care what anyone says, I CARE about high ash content and it matters to me.
High protein kibble is OK, to me, if your dogs are EXTREMELY active or in some kind of physical training of sorts.
But it's unnecessary for the average pet.

This is why if I feed a high protein kibble, when I do, it's Timberwolf Organics due to their low ash content.

Thanks for posting Jessiesmom…that is very interesting.[]
 
  I have always been hesitant about feeding older dogs protein levels higher than 30%.  That was one of the things I liked about the TWO ocean blue formula because even though it is grain free, the protein is still around 26%.  I try not to go over 28% with JJ since he is older.   
 

We need to think about what these other %'s in the diet are. You have to consider that kibble is dry, which is very unnatural for a dog to eat. If you feed a completely raw prey-model diet, the protein level is approximately 30%-- but the food is WET. Much of the other % in the diet is water. So your dog is consuming lots of water, some protein, some fat, very little in the way of carbohydrates.
 
If you feed a dry kibble that has 30% protein, much of the other % in the diet is carbohydrates. So your dog eats some protein, lots of carbs, and presumably then drinks a bunch of water. We need to adjust the % protein to take the water into account. Before comparing diets by percentages we need to either dehydrate the raw prey-model diet, or re-hydrate the kibble. Clearly if your dog consumes 30% protein dry and then re-hydrates it, the percentage of protein will be much lower than 30%.
 
The dehydrated raw diets on the market end up being between 40% and 50% protein. Even your re-hydrated 30% protein kibble will end up with much less protein than this.
 
Consider also that no one has ever demonstrated that extremely high protein diets cause any harm to dogs. It is a myth that high protein damages or stresses the kidneys of dogs. Studies of kibbles have shown that dogs fed kibbles with less than 30% protein (this is a dry food) suffer from injuries and poor muscling when compared to dogs fed kibbles with 30% protein.
 
As to the ash content of high-protein dry kibbles, I don't know anything about that.
 

in a nutshell, I think feeding your dog a dry diet is bad for the dog. I think feeding your dog a high-carbohydrate/low protein diet is bad for the dog.  If one must feed a completely dry diet, I think the high-protein/low carb kibbles are far superior to anything else available. If one is willing to feed part dry and part wet, you'd probably be better off picking a moderate protein level kibble and supplementing with additional wet sources of protein.

It is my opinion, based on my feed trials, research from the 4th edition of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Hand, Thatcher, Remillard Roudenbush, and AAFCO, that a process kibble over 30% protein is a diet is NOT for the average pet and strictly for specific prescription uses, and should be used under the supervision of a veterinarian with nutritional background. A dog food with over 30% protein is overkill in my opinion and a company just trying to find an other niche in the commercial dog food market and doing so with little concern for the pet's health and well being."

ORIGINAL: jessies_mom

Opinions are like....  She provides no reasoning and does not mention calcium.  She is a specialist in small ponies (aka Great Danes) and her experience may not translate to other breeds.  This is her "Blacwatch Feed Program Large/Giant Breed".
 
The Great Dane Lady says a protein level as low as 20% is adequate (she states 20-30%).  I seriously doubt that is adequate for a moderately active younger dog.  I do not think you can make up for that level of protein by increasing the quantity because a dog can only digest so much.  You can feed a lower quantity of the higher protein kibble and expect that it will be more completely digested if the protein source is reasonably digestible.
 
To put this into context kibble is only one component of her "feed program" which includes Probiotics & Digestive Enzymes, Dietary enzymes, Ox-E-Drops (help keep proper pH in the gut),  Flexicose (joint support supplement), Variety (canned meats - raw options, fruits and vegetable).
 
"This feed program is used by many of the top breeders in large and giant breeds in the USA and overseas. This program has 20 years of success and you must follow this program exactly"
 
It's all or nothing.  Accept it completely or reject it.

I believe those high protein diets are extremely dangerous and do not at all mimic a raw or natural diet as claimed. The companies which produce these diets are disreputable, IMHO. Its all about the almighty $ [sm=banghead002.gif] 
First of all, any raw feeder knows that you balance and vary the diet over a period of several days or longer ... the 40+% diets contain multiple protein sources in one meal - two or more types of muscle meat, fish, egg, cottage cheese. Who would feed all that in one meal were we to cook for or feed dogs raw? Keep in mind, meat itself is only about 16-18% protein on average.
Now consider these diets are anythign but low carb! Some form of carbohydrate binding agent must be used to hold the kibble together. One such brand uses tapioca. Another uses potatoes. Sounds nicer, fresher and more wholesome than yucky corn or sorghum! But both these ingredients are of lesser nutritional value and the tapioca contains a fair amount of refined sugar. Potatoes will cause a spike in blood sugar levels, while the sorghum in foods such as Eukanuba regulate it.
My main problem though is with the phosporous level. High protein foods are often erroneously blamed for causing or exasberating (sp?) kidney disease because most high protein foods contain high levels of phosporous, which must be filtered out thru the kidneys. Excessive amounts of this mineral will stress healthy kidneys over time ... more importantly, if the dog  is older and has any hint of kidney disease or even a younger dog genetically predisposed to kidney problems or has already taxed kidneys, this product can have fatal consequences.
Kidney disease is a silent killer. Symptoms often do not arise until over 50% of the kidney is already destroyed beyond repair [sm=yawn.gif] We have no way of knowing if there is some damage to the kidneys and if feeding Evo or Barking at the Moon, etc. is going to send those dogs over the edge. How many of us do bloodwork each and every tiem we switch a dog's food???
These diets claim to be in existance due to allergy problems brought about by grains. I think true allergies are rare, and most of the problems we experience w/ commercial foods stem from imbalanced vitamin premixes, cheap vitamins, or improper ratio of fatty acids. That being said, I'll take my chances with allergies, because once a kidney problem develops, we can't simply switch foods again and turn back the clock. The kidneys will be permanently damaged. Its fatal. All for a fad diet [sm=rolleyes.gif]

These diets claim to be in existance due to allergy problems brought about by grains.

ORIGINAL: UrbanBeagles

The inability of some dogs (and people) to digest grains has nothing to do with allergies but it is the reason that some choose the grain free (not carb free) kibbles.  There are grain free kibbles with protein levels in the 20s.  Obviously dogs food/ingredient tolerances vary.

It's possible the Great Dane Lady is in part very against these foods due to their incredibly high calcium levels. You cannot feed EVO or any of other versions to growing puppies without seriously damaging their bones. I stay away from them for this reason alone. The only one of the higher protein/lower carb kibbles I'm comfortable feeding is TO's wild n natural. The protein level is not extremely high, the calcium level is perfect, and ash is much lower than in the other options available. I've fed it as part of the diet for over a year to a young great dane (not puppy, but not fully grown) and have been very pleased with the result.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

It's possible the Great Dane Lady is in part very against these foods due to their incredibly high calcium levels. You cannot feed EVO or any of other versions to growing puppies without seriously damaging their bones. I stay away from them for this reason alone. The only one of the higher protein/lower carb kibbles I'm comfortable feeding is TO's wild n natural. The protein level is not extremely high, the calcium level is perfect, and ash is much lower than in the other options available. I've fed it as part of the diet for over a year to a young great dane (not puppy, but not fully grown) and have been very pleased with the result.

How old is this young great dane?  Over a year?  I'm curious, because Roxie's a large breed pup.  Well, she's nine months old now, but she's not reached a year.  I'd like to try it with her eventually ...

This is interesting, because we weren't feeding our dogs on a high protein kibble, but when we changed to homecooked/raw with no commercial food, all of them lost weight, except for maybe Jill who's very active and actually seems to have filled out a little. How much protein do dogs really need in their diets?

rabbit and venison are exotic? i would think those would be natural meat sources to my dog, because of his ancestry and because of our geographical location.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

We need to think about what these other %'s in the diet are. You have to consider that kibble is dry, which is very unnatural for a dog to eat. If you feed a completely raw prey-model diet, the protein level is approximately 30%-- but the food is WET. Much of the other % in the diet is water. So your dog is consuming lots of water, some protein, some fat, very little in the way of carbohydrates.

If you feed a dry kibble that has 30% protein, much of the other % in the diet is carbohydrates. So your dog eats some protein, lots of carbs, and presumably then drinks a bunch of water. We need to adjust the % protein to take the water into account. Before comparing diets by percentages we need to either dehydrate the raw prey-model diet, or re-hydrate the kibble. Clearly if your dog consumes 30% protein dry and then re-hydrates it, the percentage of protein will be much lower than 30%.

The dehydrated raw diets on the market end up being between 40% and 50% protein. Even your re-hydrated 30% protein kibble will end up with much less protein than this.

Consider also that no one has ever demonstrated that extremely high protein diets cause any harm to dogs. It is a myth that high protein damages or stresses the kidneys of dogs. Studies of kibbles have shown that dogs fed kibbles with less than 30% protein (this is a dry food) suffer from injuries and poor muscling when compared to dogs fed kibbles with 30% protein.

As to the ash content of high-protein dry kibbles, I don't know anything about that.

in a nutshell, I think feeding your dog a dry diet is bad for the dog. I think feeding your dog a high-carbohydrate/low protein diet is bad for the dog.  If one must feed a completely dry diet, I think the high-protein/low carb kibbles are far superior to anything else available. If one is willing to feed part dry and part wet, you'd probably be better off picking a moderate protein level kibble and supplementing with additional wet sources of protein.

It is SO refreshing to see your common sense posts these days, Mudpuppy!!! I was going to PM you but you have the feature off 

I agree with you 100%  Keep up the good work    

Opinions are like....  She provides no reasoning and does not mention calcium.  She is a specialist in small ponies (aka Great Danes) and her experience may not translate to other breeds.  This is her "Blacwatch Feed Program Large/Giant Breed".

 
YIKES!
While Lindas specialty is Great Danes...she has this on her website...you can see she is not just interested in Danes..but rather, all breeds of dogs. 

She also owned and bred champion Pugs, Borzois, and currently is owned by a Sheltie, as well as purebred cats (Persian and Ragdolls). Over the years her puppy buyers and breeder friends have come to her for assistance and as a result, she has an extensive experience which she has written about at this educational website, a place to share her knowledge and experiences with other breeders, old and new alike, regardless of breed. She works hand-in-hand with puppy buyers, breeders, owners and veterinarians in helping to solve problems in the hopes of promoting wellness and longevity for our companion animals. In June, 2006 she retired from 33 years of University teaching, and founded Blackwatch Canine Nutritional Consulting LLC to further her efforts in canine nutritional research.

 
Thanks for pointing this out to us Janice... I know I must have read it,,,I don't think there is much on that website that I haven't seen.
Its interesting to say the least.

rabbit and venison are exotic? i would think those would be natural meat sources to my dog, because of his ancestry and because of our geographical location.

ORIGINAL: gaylemarie

From her website I think it is safe to deduce that The Great Dane Lady is a paid Eagle Pack endorser and would be likely to tailor her comments/recommendations so they are not in conflict with Eagle Pack's products.