New High Protein Kibbles; Good for Your Dog?

don't hunters train and exercise their dogs during the off-season? If you let your dog lie around doing nothing all winter, spring, and fall, your dog is going to be worthless when hunting season rolls around.

 
Actually, no we didn't train or anything in off season---unless we had a new pup and took a quail wing out of freeze to work with them.  I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Texas you go out with a bird dog and a gun and it isn't bird season and a warden catches you---you are in deep doo=doo so to speak.  And it doesn't do much good to take your dog out, let them find birds and you stand around with your finger in your nose.  They will totaly confuse them.  Ours were taught to point (or set) the birds, we shoot, they go find the downed birds and bring them to us.  And quail season is in the winter here.  They did mostly lay around all summer in the Texas heat  We had some that would run around like crazy, others just all but slept the summer away  We sometimes  took them the mile walk to the general store to pick up our mail, or walking in the woodsBut nothing was regular.

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

i am glad this system works for you. however, i do not think this is the norm. what in your opinion is causing obesity in dogs? i realize lack of exercise is part of the equation. but by your contention are you saying if a dog is exercising less they will make up for it by eating less?

 
IMO, chubby dogs can a few reasons, three come mind right away being nutrition, exercise, and medical.  I think nutrition bears the most relevance.  On a scale of 1-10 I put nutrition at "8" being a leading factor.  Yes, I think it is a fair to say eating less relates to exercise.  Increased activity, increased need...less exercise, less need.
 

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

 BUT, if you are feeding a truely poor quality, high carb diet, you could end up with weight issues. These poor quality feeds require a dog to eat 2 - 3 x's more to meet the energy requirement, plus they tend to have more simple carbs with if not used for immediate energy (since they are quickly absorbed into the body) are stored as fat.

 
I think thats it in a nutshell to be honest with you, Carbs being the biggest factor.  Also, I think most owners have little regard for nutrition, not as sharp as the average bear here, and probably 95%+ of owners are buying food off a supermarket shelf or discount store.   No surprise, there lies the cheaper feeds high in Carbs.  When I see chubby dogs first thing I think is most likely a cheap feed, not there's an owner who has no regard for exercising the dog.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

don't hunters train and exercise their dogs during the off-season? If you let your dog lie around doing nothing all winter, spring, and fall, your dog is going to be worthless when hunting season rolls around.

 
That's like saying have you forgotten how to ride a bike.  And yes pregame warm-ups are very important.

I switched my two Maremmas from a feed store brand kibble to EVO RM and have never looked back. The RM costs three times as much but I feed 1/3 of it. And the change was incredible. These are two 100-125 lb dogs who have huge activity levels and metabolisms. One was getting too fat from constantly visiting the feeder, the other was short her ideal weight by probably 7% or more.

When I got Cord from the person I bought him from, he had been on Bil-Jac, which is neither a terrible food, nor is it really low in protein. He looked pretty good, but thin and his coat lacked luster. I was feeding Blackwood at the time and he acctually looked worse on IT after a couple weeks. I rotated in the TWO Lamb and Apple formula (forget what it was called). He liked it but I still wasn't getting the stamina and increase in condition he needed (by contrast to the hunting dogs, he was out running full out about four hours a day, every day, for a while. - like this:



Poor Cord - so tired:



Now he's on the EVO RM too - he loves his breakfast now and I couldn't even make a homeade diet that is that concentrated. He gained weight, his stamina improved vastly, and he's regrowing his pretty "big boy coat".

Cord fat and sassy! Pushing sheep straight uphill. . .



The zero grains are good for Zhi too. Her skin is so pretty and she doesn't have those awful tear stains, as long as I stay away from grains with her.

brookcove-- I looove to watch BC's herd! Yours looks like a pro! []
off topic but--are those sheep on the left side Katahdins?  I took a small ruminant management class a few years ago and that brings back memories of our professor making us herd the sheep (in a huge pasture) which took us hours, then turning out his BC which brought them around in a few mins...LOL

Yes, they are Katadhins. I wonder who your prof was - I'm in NC too, remember? The sheep belong to a friend in Northern VA, however - but a lot of people like the hair sheep - mostly Katadhin and Dorpers around here. I've done the "go get the sheep" thingie with farm tours - everything from elementary school kids, to high schoolers, to teachers of handicapped kids (the kids enjoyed immensely watching their normally capable teachers look quite hapless).

We're working on Cord - he's still kind of a baby in a lot of ways. He did well at the clinic this weekend, though, I was happy with him. It's that great food, I'm sure (back on topic, hee hee).

Here's a friend's photo album with pictures that will make you drool - some of the most amazing are in this folder:http://www.pbase.com/cdwall/meeker_05 (don't forget these pictures are the property of the photographer Denise Wall).

Those pictures are awesome!  I especially like the pics with the sheep in mid-air! lol

Do you know Dr. Brian Faris? He is one of the livestock extension specialists, so you might have seen/heard of him.  I think he breeds Rambouillets himself. 

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy
don't hunters train and exercise their dogs during the off-season? If you let your dog lie around doing nothing all winter, spring, and fall, your dog is going to be worthless when hunting season rolls around.

 
Once they got it, it is like riding a bike for them, you don't need to re-teach them something already learned.  However, there is always continuing education if you want, depends on how far and to what level one wishes to take there training.  A friend who has been hunting his dog for many years just recently decided he wants to work with whistle and hand signals...you know turn left turn right...this way, that way.  Training doesn't have to stop after your initial training, folks take it as far as they wish. 

I keep my dogs in the field for their health and happiness, more so than the training. Conditioning hounds is one way to let them be, well, HOUNDS [] They are better behaved, fit and trim, and happier when they get to get out and "work".
 
My hounds give me so much pleasure listening to them run and doing what they were intended to do, that I couldn't imagine not getting them out in the field.

No, I haven't heard of him - I was wondering whether it was my friend who was involved years ago with the Polled Dorset project. One of the breeds I use in my flock was developed right there at NC State - the Polled Dorset. They are very common all over the country now.

Almost all the working dog people I know look for a feed that is as close to 30/20 as possible. My late trainer worked with Big Red to get them to develop a high energy formula with no corn or soy, and a 32/24 ratio, believe it or not. That was some intense feed! You'd pull that stuff out of the bin and it was like dripping with grease. But his dogs looked awesome, had perfect bloodwork all the time, and man could they work. I had a little dog who went for training over there. I brought his bag of special food because he had had pancreatitis (yeah, it runs in the line - Doug and this dog were kissin' cousins). This dog was rail thin - it was downright embarrasing - but that happens, I figured, with teenaged BCs. A couple weeks later I came back and Steve proudly pulled Rick from his kennel. "Rick could hardly get around the field once on that stuff you brought - I fed him that Big Red and he started putting on condition right away." My gosh, it didn't even look like the same dog! It was the difference between a starving greyhound and a pit bulll - fighting trim of course, not a show dog. His coat shone, his teeth gleamed (which they pretty much did before, but I was surprised that the "cheap" kibble wasn't screwing that up), and the muscle! Steve was so proud of his accomplishment and getting such a kick out of my discombobulation over his "cheap" food's results versus my pricey California Natural.

It was definitely the special high protein/fat formula and I remember that to this day. Some trainers put a tablespoon of vegetable oil or even lard on their dog's feed, and many add in meat scraps to bring up the protein levels. No science there, just doing what's worked for generations. Steve took that and combined it with the nutritionist team at Big Red and came up with something way ahead of his time. They sold that formula here and there around here for a while and then canned it because the working folks were too small a market and at $18 for 50 pounds they weren't making much on it. They offered a corn and soy based formula (the 28/18 you can still get) that Steve tried for a while, with supplemental meat and fat, and the results were awful (there's a picture of June that Laura [dogslyfe] got from him, from that time in the "objective results" thread). He was still trying to find something both inexpensive and corn and soy free, when he passed away. Then the next year Diamond came out with their "Naturals" line - I still think of him when I pass those bags in the store.