New High Protein Kibbles; Good for Your Dog?

Stop talking crazy!  Next you'll be saying the Earth isn't flat or the center of the universe or something. []

DakotasDoode, WHAT, the earth isn't flat!!!  please show me the research that proves this theory...I still believe what the said a million years ago and I'm sure that all my ex boyfriends fell off the edge of the earth...where else could they have gone??? []

The biggest problem with dogs developing kidney disease is dehydration. This is the reason I "always" add water and canned to my dogs kibble meals.  I would never feed dry only kibble.  Plus, the foods I'm feeding are high quality protein, not a poor quality.

For myself the outcome of my dogs blood tests tell me I am doing the right thing.[]  I also have a holistic Vet who is not living in the old days of medicine like most vets are.  He attends seminars, has nutrition degrees, and continues his education and has saved more dogs suffering from kidney disease...the Vets living in the past who still believe the lower protein therory can't seem to save the dogs with kidney disease and never stop the progress of the disease.  The Vets who have been in practice for many years just can't seem to flow with new research and stick with what they know...that's not the type of Vet I'd want to be stuck with. The reason I know this is because I worked at a Vet clinic for years that had the "low protein" idea, I never saw them stop the progress of kidney disease.  My holistic vet has, we rent space from the same vet clinic he works at.  I've heard and seen (our own clients) with many success stories of how through proper diet he has saved many pets lives that conventional vets with old ideas just can't seem to help. 

So, for me...I'd rather go with new ideas and education where actual research and understanding of the kidney's was behind the research...rather than outdated research of the past.  We don't put leeches inside humans anymore to cure ailments because we moved forward and have better research.  So, why would I want to apply the old ideas of lower protein on my dogs.[]

I don't know if this was linked yet, but here is Mordanna's site.
[linkhttp://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth]http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth[/link]

Well said, and not only that, if you are familiar with the Robert Abady articles on feeding, she without mention of his name specifically disputes many of his findings. Yea, they all like to take their shots and jabs at the leader of the pack.

LOL, oh my, I have never laughed so hard in my life.[]  

We don't put leeches inside humans anymore to cure ailments because we moved forward and have better research.

 
Some doctors still use leeches for medical purposes. They will also use maggots that will consume dead tissue, thereby avoiding gangrene and other infection in a patient with such a problem.
 

Well said, and not only that, if you are familiar with the Robert Abady articles on feeding, she without mention of his name specifically disputes many of his findings.

ORIGINAL: cc431

Some of which can be found here
[linkhttp://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/index.html]http://therobertabadydogfoodcoltd.com/index.html[/link]  scroll down and look on left for article links
 
 
 

Good to know ron2...[] LOL  I have read about that and that's why that came to mind. It is hard to believe tho.  But, I am open minded enough to at least read about it.
 
That is why when it comes to protein amounts in our dogs food and the grain free....I don't just "listen" to what people say on a dog forum.  I did my research, I've read articles from leading holistic vets.  The reason I trust these people is they show "results" and are not just all talk.  They have recent up to date research to back them up instead of the limited reseach they did back in the 1970's.[]
 

ORIGINAL: Cally01
LOL, oh my, I have never laughed so hard in my life.[]  

 
What I find humorus is knowing you have a holistic vet and at the same time laugh at the supreme holistic feed!

Some doctors still use leeches for medical purposes. They will also use maggots that will consume dead tissue, thereby avoiding gangrene and other infection in a patient with such a problem.

 
This is abosolutely corrrect, gag gag gag.  My cousin's son was in a car wreck about 3 years ago and one ear was cut off.  They re attached it and put leeches on it.  I honestly thought my aunt was joking when she told me this.  But she expalined--the leeches, sucking blood, kept the blood circulating thru Russ's ear.  it musta worked as he still has that ear and it is "alive and well."
 
But when I think of leeches I think of the movie African Queen when Humphrey Bogard was pulling the boat and got out of the water with those huge blood suckers on him.  I was very young the first time i saw that movie, but I never forgot that.  It always gave me chills thinking about those things and I wa horrified when my aunt told me about DOCTORS putting leeches on Russ's ear.  But it makes sense.  It was not for the old time reason of them drawing out bad blood, but to keep blood circulating and keeping the ear alive.

Even Dr. Remillard at petdiets.com (DVM, PhD, CVN, pres. - ACVN) states that current research shows that high protein doesn't adversely affect growing puppies but the calcium balance against the phosphorous does. She also points out that protein when fed in excess gets stored as fat. Too much fat does lead to ailments. The reason for animal protein restricted diets is for a pet who is already suffering a kidney problem and it is not actuallly the protein that's the problem, it's the nitrogen load from eating animal protein that is the problem. The kidney filters out the nitrogen and passes it out in urine. When the kidney is diminished in function, nitrogen backs up in the system, causing nausea, lethargy, etc. Such as happened with my old cat. The advantage of a high NFE (Nitrogen Free Extract) diet is that the animal still gets protein, just not from animal sources. This takes the nitrogen load off of the kidneys.
 
But the other part is true. Managers of working dogs lower the ratio in the off-season to keep the dogs from getting fat. During the heat of summer, the appetite can drop fairly low but the work demand will be low, as well. In order not to build up too much heat, the dogs don't work as hard or as often, and then wouldn't have any way to use all that excess protein. They would get fat, which in the heat, will lead to other systemic health problems.

She also points out that protein when fed in excess gets stored as fat.

ORIGINAL: ron2

Ditto for carbs.  Metabolism and nutrition is not always a 1+1=2 equation however. 

Simple carbohydrates are more readily stored as fat that some types of consumed fat and protein.  Nutritionists are now paying attention to the glycemic index of specific carbs.
 
I doubt a significant percentage of the fat dogs I encounter when walking mine are fat because they are fed high protein kibble.

I doubt a significant percentage of the fat dogs I encounter when walking mine are fat because they are fed high protein kibble

 
Let me conditionally agree with you on that. It is also noteworthy (from Dr. Remillard) that today's pets are getting over fed. The foods are deliver more per serving than they use to do. This coupled with the fact that the dogs don't get enough exercise. How much you want to bet that the fat dogs you see don't get enough exercise for the intake that they have? If you eat more than you burn, you get fat. As someone pointed out in another post, you might feed your dog a certain food but if most of their actual meal comes from your bag of potato chips or whatever, they are going to get fat.
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

I doubt a significant percentage of the fat dogs I encounter when walking mine are fat because they are fed high protein kibble

Let me conditionally agree with you on that. It is also noteworthy (from Dr. Remillard) that today's pets are getting over fed. The foods are deliver more per serving than they use to do. This coupled with the fact that the dogs don't get enough exercise. How much you want to bet that the fat dogs you see don't get enough exercise for the intake that they have? If you eat more than you burn, you get fat. As someone pointed out in another post, you might feed your dog a certain food but if most of their actual meal comes from your bag of potato chips or whatever, they are going to get fat.

 
I know they're not fat from high protein kibble.  If the food is genuinely high protein, feeding tables will reflect the amounts needed to be served.  They don't eat more, only less.  The main reason dogs are fat is because their caloric intake needs are not being satisfied, and they continue to eat until needs are met.  I believe in what my feed maker states, it is impossible for dogs to get fat from over ingesting calories.  They eat until their needs are satisfied then stop eating.  More often then not I have food leftover in bowls.  I'm not talking about fridge treats until they pop, just their staple feed.
 
Myself, I would err on the side of caution in advise from a Vet that states things like fat is bad, animal source proteins can be dangerous, etc.  Unless he is referring to possible mistakes in raw feeding programs, they likelihood of a kibble fed over doing it with animal source proteins and fat is practically nil.  Will they sacrifice profit for better nutrition?

From Dr. Remillard at petdiets.com;
 
Protein quality is determined by the type and number of amino acids. Egg and liver are of the highest protein quality because of their amino acid profiles. Amino acids may become incorporated into body tissues, burned for energy, or, if consumed in excess, will be converted and stored as body fat.
 
Dr. Remillard is a PhD, DVM, CVN, and pres of the ACVN, operator of petdiets.com, a consortium of pet nutrition professionals, and is also an attending vet at Angell Memorial Animal Hospital.
 
Essentially, excess nutrients of any type can and will be stored as fat, as is found out in real life by owners/managers of working dogs and teams of working dogs.

The % of protein is really irrelevant when it comes right down to it. We should really keep in mind that it's all about the amino acids (since these are the buidling blocks of protein). Regardless of the "amount" of protein, it's what available IN the proteins used in the food. Bioavailability of the proteins and which amino acids they contain are what's ultimately important in the diet.
There are 10 essential amino acids for dogs that MUST be provided by the diet. Different foods provide different EAA's. As long as the requirements for ALL the EAA's are being met, the % of protein is not important. The quality of the protein IS, however, key in the body's ability to digest, convert, and absorb it. If there is even one EAA not present in the diet, the body cannot produce the necessary amino acids and can suffer from deficencies.
So, no matter if your dogs diet is 60% or 25%, as long as all the required EAA's are present (and bioavailable), your dog is getting what it needs.

Nutritionists are now paying attention to the glycemic index of specific carbs.

 
  Some of the canned foods that Merrick makes are certified as being "Low Glycemic" by the Glycemic Researsch Institute;    [linkhttp://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=15&s=20311]http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=15&s=20311[/link]; why is that apparently a good thing for dogs?
 
 
  

The main reason dogs are fat is because their caloric intake needs are not being satisfied, and they continue to eat until needs are met. I believe in what my feed maker states, it is impossible for dogs to get fat from over ingesting calories. They eat until their needs are satisfied then stop eating.

 
   I have never heard this before. How does your feed maker back up this statement; what's thier reasoning?