New High Protein Kibbles; Good for Your Dog?

I said that most people feed a set portion regardless of food ( my neighbor says she always feeds 2.5 cps) - you say if adjusted for size & activity - two different comments entirely I hope you see the difference

ORIGINAL: kpwlee

Let me clarify.  I agree that most people do not vary their dogs meals with activity level.  That was not the point I was trying to make.
 
Someone said you should not feed a high protein, high fat kibble unless your dog is a sled dog or other extreme athlete.  At the same time some say that and toy breeds are okay with it also.  I was trying to make the point (with my 4 mile a day human versus 20 mile a day example above) that their diets may be pretty much the same (in nutritional analysis) but you would expect the 20 mile per day runner to eat more of it or similar quantities in a more concentrated form. 
 
In other words, why can't an everyday dog eat a diet similar to a sled dogs diet but (adjusted for the big difference in activity level) a much smaller quantity? 

I then said that allowing the above dog owner to go purchase high protein, high calorie food isn't a great idea - said nothing about making it illegal or needing a license to do so. 

I was only reacting to your use of the word "allowing" as if the food were a gun or something.  I doubt most of the fat waddling dogs I see are that way because they are overfed the type of food we are discussing.  In humans, simple carbs are more readily/efficiently stored as fat than consumed fat is.  I think that is similar for dogs.

In other words, why can't an everyday dog eat a diet similar to a sled dogs diet but (adjusted for the big difference in activity level) a much smaller quantity

That's clearer, now. As I said before, sleddogs are fed either kibble, raw, or cooked or a combination thereof. Anyone could feed their dogs similarly on a lower level. But here's where the high protein food can be a problem. Let's say your dog is used to eating the equivalent of 4 cups a day.  In order to achieve the right level for an ordinary dog, you would have to feed them less of the food than they are used to eating. Some people work around this by supplmenting the small amount of  high protein/fat food with cooked vegetables, rice, whatever, trying to achieve the same balance of a 24 % protein food. Maybe the are getting there, maybe not. Let me also note, again, that the diet in a racing team is monitored by vets and adjustments are made corresponding the the performance of the existing nutrition. Most people are not consulting a vet when they provide the food they give. They see the package saying >30 % and think "more is better." That being said, I'm sure there are some that are happy with feeding small amounts of the high-octane kibble with homecooked, etc. Some, such as Lauri C feed only raw meat and bones.
 
A few times, I have corresponded with the vet who designed Momentum. Since Shadow has sleddog ancestry and is primarily Husky where it counts, I asked if I should put him on a food such as Momentum. I detailed our normal house pet lifestyle. And he said such food was designed for racing dogs in competition or heavy training and that it would be too much for him. That he will do much better on a regular dog food of 18 to 25 percent protein. And this is an actual vet who cares for, feeds, and races sleddogs. So, he not only has the book larnin', he has the everyday experience. And earned my respect by being honest and upfront.
 

It does not make sense that feeding less would somehow lessen the % of protein, fat, or carbs. Your just feeding less kcals. If a food is 32% protein and 23% fat, then that's what it is no matter how much of it you feed.
Now, if you take that kibble and use it as a base and add some fresh fruits and veggies or some carbs or fiber, THEN you lower the % values of the protein and fat. Balance has nothing to do with quantity.
 
My dogs are fed according to the season. During trial season (and just before) they get added protein and fats, plus a higher ration of kibble (more kcals). They get alot of training and exercise during this time and NEED the extra's. When we're in the off-season, their rations are cut to a minimum and only occasionally get any "extras". They have to stay lean during the summer, as it's to hot for them to work-out. Of course, they would run until they passed out from heat stroke, but I just don't feel right working them too hard in the heat. So, they kcals, protein, and fat are reduced to a maintence level. If they get out of shape during the summer, then they just don't perform well come time for field trials.

But here's where the high protein food can be a problem. Let's say your dog is used to eating the equivalent of 4 cups a day. In order to achieve the right level for an ordinary dog, you would have to feed them less of the food than they are used to eating.

 
The stomach is elastic.  Its size when empty and capacity when full can grow or shrink with time.  As with any food switch you can always do it gradually and give the dog time to adjust to the reduced volume.  It would not be anywhere near a 50% reduction in volume.
 

Let me also note, again, that the diet in a racing team is monitored by vets and adjustments are made corresponding the the performance of the existing nutrition. Most people are not consulting a vet when they provide the food they give.

ORIGINAL: ron2
 
Any extreme athlete, dog or human, has less margin for error in nutrition.  While performing, sled dogs will metabolize their own muscle and be injury prone without proper nutrition.  The high octane kibbles are nutritionally balanced for healthy dogs. 
 
We keep going back to the sled dog extreme athlete while overlooking the fact that many people say the high octane kibbles are appropriate for toy breeds.  Are those of you who say the stuff is best left to professionally monitored sled dogs against feeding it to toy breeds as well?  If not why not? 

My dogs output is something close to oatmeal and extremely smelly when she gets kibble with barley.  She digests dairy (yogurt) fine.  Her output on California Natural (both chicken and lamb) was pretty lousy also.  That means I avoid food with barley and rice as primary ingredients. 
 
Being a city dweller and poop toter I pay lots of attention to poop.  My dogs best output was on Barking At The Moon (the newer Beef and Salmon formulation).  I also feed Pinnacle Duck & Potato and Pinnacle Trout and Sweet Potato but mostly high octane.  The Pinnacle kibbles I feed are 22-23% protein and 10-12% fat.  Formed but (relatively) smelly and soft output is the result.  There is also more of it than with the high octane.
 
Depending on which direction we walk and when she poops I may have to carry my poop bag an hour or more.

Are those of you who say the stuff is best left to professionally monitored sled dogs against feeding it to toy breeds as well? If not why not?

 
I use EVO in my rotation with my Chi's, but don't give it to them exclusively when I do feed it. I usually give some fresh "stuff" with it OR will mix in a little EP with it. I also add EVO in with my beagles food (EP Natural) during the season.
My Chi's do well on the EP and I'll add the EVO because they like it and they have a faster metabolism than a larger dog (smaller the animal, faster the metabolism). I don't see where they do better or worse when they get EVO as opposed to EP and frankly I don't see a difference in their stool. They also get some raw and homecooked, but I don't have a set schedule as to how they get their food "dished" out. They get what they get, when I get the notion to add it. They also know that is what they get and they better eat it or there will be nothing else.
Sometimes I think there is WAY to much emphasis put on POOP and I don't obsess over it, although their stools are not large OR terribly stinky.

ORIGINAL: dyan

I would be less inclined to believe she was getting kickbacks if she listed any other food in her visible list -  I know she provides a link to others but the HIGH visibility of EP and the logo etc gives one the feel of a relationship. 

There IS a high visibility of EP,,,but she also DOES list the other recommended foods...more than ten now....and the links to them.  What more can she do? She believes in Eagle and talks about it all the time...she said she was involved in the trail tests and much to do with the planning of the forumala for large/giant breeds which is why she suggests them. But does put out a list of other recommended companies and the criterial for which she chooses them.  That list does change also.
Personally for me,,,I have a Great Dane...so I'm an Eagle Pack girl. I find it wonderful to believe that someone that raised generations of my breed, are out there working to make the health  and life extension of this breed better. BUT I also appreciate her website for other breeds as she has studied nutrition.  Is she always right???  Who knows? But are the others? We don't know that either.

Dyan, do you know what part of her site has the list of other foods she recommends? I'm interested but couldn't find it!

Even though your regime is for field dogs, the amount of work and type of feeding you have to do is analagous to sled dogs. So, you are a local case in point of the process of caring for a working dog. And you're right. The percentages are an "as fed" condition. Any amount that you feed is guaranteed to have that percentage and, as I was pointing out how someone might adjust, other stuff is mixed in so that the total bowl of food represents sometihng closer to 25 percent, which could also be accomplished with a commercial food of, say, 24/13, with the supps and extras already in there.

That's right Ron. I believe that those high protein, grain free foods are not intended as a stand alone diet, but to be used as a quality base (with all the nutrients) so those who choose to add other ingredients can do so without sacraficing nutrient balance.

I haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if I say something that has been already discussed, etc...

High protein diets do not pose a problem to dogs that do not have a genetic suceptibility to kidney/bladder issues.  The thing that I think most people don't consider is that there is a "threshold" for the amount of protein a dog can absorb.  Some dogs can completely digest all 42% of the protein in the food (like EVO in this case) while another dog's system may not be as efficient and will digest 30%, or even 24% of that protein, the rest being excreted as excess through the kidneys.  If that dog has a healthy kidney, the excretion of the excess protein will not be a problem.  I think that it is fine for a healthy dog to have a food that has 42% protein available, so that it can utilize as much protein as it needs compared to a dog that is only offered 20% protein, that has the ability to absorb more if needed.

      .

Well said papillon806[]
 
I was just reading a book by Dr Henry Pasternak, DVM, CVA.  This is what he has to say about the protein contraversy
 

Dogs fed a higher or normal protein diet tend to have enhanced feelings of well being.  Higher protein diets tend to be more palatable as well. 
 
There are many false assumptions pointing to reduced protein intake in regard to renal disease that have been perpetuated by food companies for many years.  It should be remembered that fifty or sixty years ago when these myths were perpetuated not much was known about kidneys.  

 
He goes into great detail of how the body assimulates a higher protein diet and what really causes kidney failure (dehydration-especially in cats being number one)
 

Unfortunately even the National research council (NRC) adapted this low protein theory in 1972.  It accepted the theory that high protein found in some commercial diets increases the workload of the liver and kidney and contributes to renal disease in dogs.  There is absolutely no evidence to support this view, and the recommendation has since been dropped.  There is, however, overwhelming evidence that high protein diets enhance renal function in normal dogs.  This has lead to confusion among veterinarians and food manufacturers who have been told for decades that low protein diets may be beneficial for kidney funciton and therefore high protein diets may be deleterious to normal dogs.
 
Modern research has clearly shown that the concept of increased workload, protein intake causing injury to the kidneys, and reduced protein intake slowing the progression of renal disease are incorrect.   

 
 
This clearly shows that the lower protein ideas are outdated and far behind new research. 
 
I personally can say that my Rottie with HD is doing 100% better on the grain free high protein foods.  Plus, as I mentioned her blood test came out perfect and better than most dogs my vet sees that are younger than her.[]  I also find the cost of feeding the grain free foods are not that much higher than normal as your feeding less.
 
I'm sticking with new research rather than the outdated research that didn't have enough understanding of the kidneys to base their ideas on.

This clearly shows that the lower protein ideas are outdated and far behind new research.

ORIGINAL: Cally01

Stop talking crazy!  Next you'll be saying the Earth isn't flat or the center of the universe or something. []

Dyan, do you know what part of her site has the list of other foods she recommends? I'm interested but couldn't find it!

 
Yep! Sure can!  [linkhttp://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/criteria_list_of_better_foods.htm]http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/criteria_list_of_better_foods.htm[/link]

My dog is on a "higher protein" formula, and I haven't noticed much of a change from a "normal protein" diet. Her bloodwork is fine. I guess she is a *little* more focused in her training, but that it probably more because the high protein formula is grain free, not because of the protein%. I've hear that higher protein diets may reduce some forms of aggression (territorial and fear) but I haven't seen much of a change in that department.

I'll tell ya though....my cat does STUPENDOUSLY on high protein diets.....her coat becomes ridiculously glossy and she barely sheds (and she is a DLH so that's good for me!). She has never had a hairball in her entire life and I swear it is because of the food. However, I do give her system a "break" from high protein every now and then and switchto another food for a bag or two, since I have yet to get her bloodwork checked when she is on the high protein.

ORIGINAL: DakotasDoode
 
From her website I think it is safe to deduce that The Great Dane Lady is a paid Eagle Pack endorser and would be likely to tailor her comments/recommendations so they are not in conflict with Eagle Pack's products.

 
Well said, and not only that, if you are familiar with the Robert Abady articles on feeding, she without mention of his name specifically disputes many of his findings.  Yea, they all like to take their shots and jabs at the leader of the pack.
 
This thread also has some discussion of sled dog nutrition w/ the high protein kibbles.  They are all by design inadequate for working sled dog nutrition.  Despite the endorsing name on their back, no musher is using more than 25% of that product if it is a kibble feed.  They must supplement on the trail with meat (typically mink or beaver) otherwise they have no real hopes of competing.  The Abady team runs exclusively on Abady Raw products.  The dogs may not win but there is no cheating and the dogs always finish in good standing.
 
Some info in regards to sled dog nutrition:
[linkhttp://seppalasleddogs.com/feeding-seppalas.htm#takrsp]http://seppalasleddogs.com/feeding-seppalas.htm#takrsp[/link]