"Raw Meat: A Dangerous Fad"

read again Christine:
The formula features 34-36 % meat meal protein from real meat and 24-26% fat. A unique fat blend uniformly releases energy over a longer period of time.

[color=#330000]Actually, if you go into the above website you can read it all for yourself.[/color]

Dyan i did go to the website and had a look at the power analysis which is what i stated above.Not sure if this is the ultra power version,as i couldnt find that listed anywhere!

I read the 34-36% meat meal to be just that.The food is 34-36% meat meal,i didnt think it meant the protein content.

It says 34-3 % meat meal proteinn 34-36% meat meal.  I assume that to mean 34- 36% meat meal protein!
  
                                                                                                                     Eagle was essential for winning the race, and not just during the race.  I fed Eagle Power Pack in the off season and Eagle Ultra Power during the training season”, said Gatt.    I take that to mean he feeds two different formulas, perhaps the Ultra is not available to us at this time.

John had given me a link to the eaglepack site braggin about their racing dog blend. One winner had fed a combo of Ultra Power and fish. He didn't say if the fish was de-boned and cooked. I imagine it was cooked long enough to thaw, as the average temp during the race will be somewhere below freezing. Most other mushers, before Eagle Pack came up with their blend were feeding various racing kibble, such as Momentum, who's most popular blend is 35/27 (protein/fat). Many mushers feed a mix of kibble and meat, sometimes cooked, sometimes raw. The also vary the mix, depending on the amount of work. During off-season, they back of the higher protein and fat. During season, a sled dog can require 2500 kcals a day. The EaglePack site was wanting to brag that the winning team made it all the way on just their kibble.
 

The site said that some of the mushers feed up to 8 meals a day!  Wow!  They said they might snack on fish or chicken skins. They also bait the water with fish to get the dogs to drink more during the race.

If dogs had not been domesticated, would they choose canned/processed food or a raw kill?

 
If given a choice I think they would choose the canned/processed food for the convenience then go gnaw on the raw kill.  Metabolizing hair and bone takes more energy.  Number one rule in being a predator:   The meal must provide more energy than what is needed to catch and metabolize it.

I stand by my statement... evolution really doesn't make "mistakes." If raw bones and meat were bad for wild canids, they wouldn't have evolved that diet.

 
If you research enough you will find that wild do not just eat meat.  About 30% of their diet is some form of vegetation be it berries, some grasses, etc.
 

My mum routinely samples raw hamburger meat(checks seasoning) before cooking it,she's never been sick a day in her life.

 
Big difference from consuming a pound of it for a meal.

It's fine for people to eat raw meat. It's the contamination that we can't handle.

 
What is your diet like?
 

I know this is way late in the discussion, but my puter' has been down.
 
At the facility where I worked (with grey wolves), we actually did an experiment. Our two wolves feeding protocol was as follows:
One full pan of kibble (dry dog food for the vitamins and minerals) 24/7 and three jumbo rats each daily (although they prefered the small rats and more of them). They also got whole chickens, deer legs, and other meat occasionally during the week. We tried to keep their diet varied to closely resemble a wild diet.
We were having trouble medicating them (when necessary) by gut loading the rats, so we tried them on canned dog food (without meds). They LOVED it! They would have rather had that than anything else we offered, so we had to be careful to keep it only on rare occasions. When it came time to medicate them, we just mixed it up in canned food and they gobbled it right up! No PROBLEMS and they were totally happy. Once they downed the canned food, they proceeded to eat their regular rations.

Black Bears appear to be carnivores.

 
How can they be carnivores when the article you linked to states a black bears diet is 75-85% vegetation.

About 30% of their diet is some form of vegetation be it berries, some grasses, etc.

 
Okay, I know I said I'd leave...... but....
 
My statement was broad meaning that if a raw diet *made* them sick (meaning if they eat raw meat, many will be sick), they would not have evolved to eat raw meat. Or, to keep other parties happy, this kind of accidental mutation would have been outcompeted by wolves successively better able to eat plant matter (or cook their food, that'd be a scare sight! []). I guess a better statement might be that the process of natural selection does not favor the weak, but rather the stong whom are better adapted to survive in their enviroment.
 
Also, not all canids eat the same amount of vegetation. I highly doubt an artic wolf eats that much vegetation (if any), but I wouldn't be surprised if a coyote did. I'm sure diet of 30% vegetation would get all canids thrown in the omnivore category; some are some are carnivores. A 30% ratio is too broad of a blanket to throw on all species. Finally, where did you get this information?
 
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I was wondering how people pronounced coyote. Do you say "Kai - Yote" (sorry, lol, I didn't know how else to write it out), or "Kai - Yote - ee?"

In Texas, rednecks pronounce it (ky-ot) with the second "o" being long. Mexicans pronounce it (koy-otay), which also what they call the smuggler that brings them across the border. They earned that name because they are scavengers that will take every penny you have to bring you to America. There's not much vegetation in arctic or sub-arctic areas but there is enough in northern Siberia to sustain reindeer. People in that area would trade with other parts of  the asian steppes for other food, such as rice to supplement their diet of fish and seal. I think you are correct in that certain breeds adapt to food from a region where they developed. And true, some canids may tend to eat more meat than vegetable.
 
So, let's get back to a real hard, bottom line equation in evolution. An animal that can eat more than one food source is likely to survive longer, (possibly, better) than one that tends to eat just one thing. Wild canids live, on average, 4 to 8 years. The number one cause of death appears to be a toss-up between the activities of Man and starvation. Some activities of Man could be counted as predation, i.e., a rancher who lost his cow to a wolf will shoot and kill the wolf, though not eating it. Other scavengers, such as vultures, will take care of that. Other canids, such as the Maned Wolf of South America will eat up to 50% vegetation during the summer, including a preferred berry from a bush named after it. Fruta Lobo, Wolf's Fruit. Just because a certain pack of gray wolves may tend not to eat vegetation and concentrate on meat does not mean that they are not malnourished and that, even with the canid's ability to survive malnutrition for a long time, will not succumb to the malnourishment or pure starvation due to not enough old and sickly prey to catch. Again, evolution is not perfect. It's more a matter of statistics. The more adaptable a species, the greater it's chances of survival. As a species, we are weak and lack natural weapons and we are slow. What makes us the dominant species, amongst other things, is our adaptability, which includes our ability to manipulate our environment, i.e., grow food, build computers and surf an internet.

I've tried offering three bowls to my dogs: canned dog food, cooked meat, and raw meat. They eat the cooked meat first, then the canned dog food, then they go for the raw meat. But hey, I prefer to eat chocolate cake over broccoli, so what does this taste test mean anyway? 
 I think the raw-ness of meat or lack thereof isn't the real issue in dog diets. What are the major differences between a kibble diet and a "wolf diet"?
1) grain. A dog foraging on his own would eat little to no grain. Dogs fed kibble eat mostly grain, or for a few brands, mostly potatoes. Low protein high carb. Kind of the opposite of a "natural dog diet", which is high protein low carb.
2) lack of variety and freshness. A dog foraging on his own would eat a wide variety of fresh foods, everything from rabbit liver to blueberries. Dogs fed kibble eat the same thing every day, and it ain't fresh.
3) lack of water. Everything a dog foraging on his own ate would be at least 50% water. Kibble, well, it's dry.

Just thought I would see how yall felt about this... dont worry I would never do this but all this talk of omnivores and carnivores I thought I would share what I found...

Dogs can be vegetarians
[linkhttp://www.vegetariandogs.com]www.vegetariandogs.com[/link]

[linkhttp://www.k9care.com]www.k9care.com[/link]
This site actually states that dogs were "never" carnivores.
BTW that article is found under the canine care philosophy section.
 
Add to edit:  I know these are not scientific sites and all, just thought it was interesting and relevant to the converstaion....  yes, personally I think they should eat meat, so no attcking.