The Noble Quest for Kinder and Gentler "Nutrition" Postings

I know this is a little delayed (from the beginning of this discussion), but it was said that there is "no proof that one food is better than another" using Kibbles N bits and TO as an example.  I can say that there IS proof....foods like TO use animal protein sources which contain the essential amino acids profiles that dogs need to thrive.  Cheap foods like KNB and Purina use plant protein sources (like corn gluten meal, brewers rice, etc) that do not provide the essential AA's for dogs, they just "satisfy" the gauranteed analysis for the AAFCO to maintain life (bare minimum)...this has all been proven through years of scientific studies (not to forget the previous mention of BHA/BHT, ethoxyquin, etc).  I'm sure that most people do not intend on being mean to others who may not be educated in this field, but I think it's more of an "intense want" to help others with the knowledge that we have (I'm sure it just comes out in a different way).  But my whole reasoning behind this was that there are more than just opinions on which dog food is healthier...

He never had trouble with turkey before, Janice, but ever since the chicken inflammation became so severe, he reacts just as strongly to turkey or duck - even the NB duck biscuits!

ORIGINAL: papillon806


But my whole reasoning behind this was that there are more than just opinions on which dog food is healthier...

Please, point me to this proof.  Please.  I have never seen any proof, on any of the doggy forums I hang out on, and some of them are really ignorant when it comes to nutrition. 

I assume you are saying that scientific proof does exist that dogs that are fed, for example, TO, live longer, healthier lives than dogs fed, for example, KnB.  I have never seen such proof or even heard someone suggest that it exists.  Please direct me to this study.

Comparing KNB to TO is like comparing apples to oranges!

To even suggest that  they are comparable foods is ,i dont know....ridiculous!

TO has everything a dog needs,well as much as a "kibble" can provide,and KNB et al contains just enough to let a dog survive,even then i dont know how crap foods like that sustain a living being [&:]

Study done on Corn Gluten meal vs. Animal protein in its relation to longevity:

Wakshlag JJ, Barr SC, Ordway GA, Kallfelz FA, Flaherty CE, Christensen BW, Shepard LA, Nydam DV, Davenport GM.

Department of Clinical Sciences, Cornell University, College of Veterinary Medicine, Ithaca, NY, USA. [email=jw37@cornell.edu]jw37@cornell.edu[/email]

"To determine the effect of dietary protein intake on lean body wasting in adult canines a study was undertaken to investigate the Ubiquitin Proteasome (UP) pathway and concurrent changes in lean and fat body mass of canines fed variable sources and concentrations of dietary protein. Purpose-bred, intact female canines (56) between the ages of 2 and 3 years were fed either 12 or 28% protein diet for 10 weeks. Each diet contained variable amounts of corn gluten meal and chicken protein sources in ratios of 100 : 0, 67 : 33, 33 : 67 and 0 : 100 per cent (w/w), respectively. All diets were isocaloric with calories coming from protein : fat : carbohydrate at the respective ratios of 12 : 40 : 48% for the 12% diets, and 28 : 40 : 32% for the 28% diets. Standard dual energy X-ray absorptiometry was performed to assess total body lean and fat mass at weeks 0 and 10 of the dietary trial. Muscle biopsies were also taken and processed for protein determination and standard gel electrophoresis with subsequent Western blotting for 20S proteasome and PA700 regulatory cap subunit p31. Statistical analysis revealed a moderate degree of correlation between increasing quantities of corn gluten, which is low in essential amino acids (i.e. lysine, tryptophan), and increasing loss of lean body mass over the 10-week study (R = 0.56). Furthermore, a moderate degree of correlation was observed between increasing concentrations of corn gluten protein and decreased expression of the p31 subunit of the 26S proteasome (R = 0.49). Additionally, the dogs consuming the 12% protein diets had a significant increase in fat mass regardless of the protein source. These findings suggest that lean body wasting in adult canines can be associated with the consumption of low protein diets consisting of predominantly corn gluten, which is likely due to imbalances or subclinical deficiencies of specific essential amino acids, and that low protein diets may augment accumulation of adipose tissue. Although the mechanisms remain unclear, alteration of molecular targets of skeletal muscle proteolysis, specifically involving the UP pathway occur. "

Any other questions?

ORIGINAL: ozzie72

Comparing KNB to TO is like comparing apples to oranges!

To even suggest that  they are comparable foods is ,i dont know....ridiculous!

 
I am not suggesting they are COMPARABLE.  I am suggesting that TO is a far better food than KnB.  My point is, neither of us can PROVE it with CONCLUSIVE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
 
Odie's coat looks MUCH better feeding what I feed than he did when I adopted him.  His eyes aren't runny either.  But one is hardly a statistically significant sample and I have absolutely no proof that his improvement is a result of the change in food, sure as I may be that it is.

What did you think of the study I posted??? That proves that ingredients in the KNB vs the TO is better and that these ingredients affect the longevity of your pet!

ORIGINAL: papillon806

Any other questions?

 
Yes, but in the spirit of being kindler and gentler, I won't respond, except to say that a 10 week study on longevity and the author's using such strong language as "a moderate degree of correlation" is hardly what I would call impressive and convincing evidence.

These findings suggest that lean body wasting in adult canines can be associated with the consumption of low protein diets consisting of predominantly corn gluten, which is likely due to imbalances or subclinical deficiencies of specific essential amino acids, and that low protein diets may augment accumulation of adipose tissue.

ORIGINAL: papillon806
-that pretty much sums it up there!

But suit yourself...apparently scientific information is not good enough for you.  I am a grad student studying animal nutrition, and we are taught these things as basics as an undergrad.  If you want to see more studyies like this, go look at the National Research Council books for a dogs requirement and you will see more studies proving this.  Also, in scientific terms, "moderate" is enough to deduce that the results stray one way or another, meaning there is evidence proving that it effects your dog.  If that's not good enough for you, then you seem to have closed off your mind to any other options whatsoever.

Yes, but in the spirit of being kindler and gentler,
 
Hey,,,,,,,,,its nice to know SOMEONE remembered the subject of this topic!!!!!    
 

I really don't want to be mean, I just don't understand how someone can say that's not a "good enough" study, especially considering I take part in these sorts of things in my reasearch and graduate studies.  It just upsets me when people don't understand certain scientific principles, like the use of "moderate" and what it means during a research trial, etc.  I apologize for my attitude, and I understand I may not have been "kind or gentle," but I thought that people wanted to see a study concerning, proving, or disproving what they wanted to know, and I provided one.

I apologize for my attitude, and I understand I may not have been "kind or gentle," but I thought that people wanted to see a study concerning, proving, or disproving what they wanted to know, and I provided one.

Hey Papillon, I just want to say that by chance if you wrote this because of me saying at least someone  remembered the topic, I want you to know that I did NOT mean you.   Not even in the least.
You are providing us with the information as you know it,  that is good discussion.  

ORIGINAL: papillon806



But suit yourself...apparently scientific information is not good enough for you. 

 
You and your "graduate studies" attitude are about to be my first use of our new ignore filter.
 
All the study you quoted does, for me, is to SUGGEST the OSSIBILITY that corn gluten meal MAY not be as good a protein source as chicken.  Well, duh.  I wonder how much money they spent to come up with that brilliant conclusion.  Not to mention, 10 whole weeks.
 
I remain unimpressed.

Billy give it a rest would ya! It seems your topic post of "kinder and gentler" was just a ruse and an open ticket for you to stir up sh*t! [&:]

We finally have a new member who knows more than the average Joe and you're gonna block her.This makes zip sense to me!

Are you sure you're not Isabel incarnate? [:'(] Your posts are something i would only expect from someone like her [&:]

It has been scientifically proven that no sooner has one pot-stirrer gotten the boot, then another appears. Oh joy.