The Noble Quest for Kinder and Gentler "Nutrition" Postings

Kinder and gentler or not - some of us (me) didn't know ANYTHING about dog nutrition before we found this forum...  it is because of your posts that today I have begun the switch from Nutro (on which he was doing fine) to TWO (ironically, I bought the new food before I came home and read this thread for the first time). 
 
I think that it is important to respect the opinions and feelings of others and it is most definitely true that the people on this forum are in all likelihood here because they love, cherish and want to do right by our dogs...  But, we are also here to learn - so I like the debates, I like to see two or more people, all who probably know more than I do spar and disagree - that way I can take in all the information and do what I believe to be right for my dog. 

I must say that your study is interesting, but it is comparing LOW protein, plant based diet, to a HIGH protein meat based diet. I admire the scientific basis of the study and your passion for it, although, it is not a comparitive study in relation to the subject discussed. Your knowledge is appreciated and very welcome here (to me anyway) and would love for you to continue sharing.
 
My issue with the study quoted is:
Protein is known to maintain and build muscle and dogs need ALL the EAA's. If even ONE is missing, there will be loss of condition.  Obviously, plant matter can't provide all the EAA's and must be combined with a certain amount of animal protein to be able to meet canine needs, BUT, this study is NOT a good comparision as it is comparing a totally inadequate diet to an above average one (relatively speaking). The 12% protein diet was not designed to be appropriate nutrition, it was designed to show what can happen when a dog is deprived of necessary nutrients.
I am sure that no one on idog is disputing the fact that dogs need a mostly meat-based diet and that corn gluten meal is not something they would want as a main (or only) source of protein.
Again, I appreciate these studies and love reading them!

I have nothing scientific to add, I do what I think is best with Eagle Pack for my dog, but I find it comical (kind of) that one of the foods we are discussing is Kibble N Bits, the exact food that my pitbull ate for almost all of her 17  years.
But I guess she did die eventually!

The study you posted was first posted here by mudpuppy in another thread. It is following one indicator and it's appearance in the overall nutrient profile is changing based on how much adipose the corn gluten is adding to the profile. If you start out with one part tissue and 2 parts adipose, it appears the muscle tissue is  a ratio of .33. If you add one more part adipose, then the muscle tissue ratio appears to drop to .25. And the study is so short it doesn't account for all the other factors or true longetivity. But it is a good start.
 
What Probe is asking for is a definitive long term study that shows that dogs that eat, say Innova, are living longer, healthier lives than dogs that eat Purina. There is no such scientific study that he knows of that says that. Even you admit the limits of this study, which is, for the duration of the trial, it appeared to have an affect which may affect your dog. The possible promise of a maybe, i.e., scientific conjecture, not case-proven fact. Many such studies release a few results early in order to get more grant money. Nor is Probe saying that Purina is better than Innova. He believes quite the opposite but he knows his beliefs are based, at best, on anecdotal evidence and not double-blind scientific lifetime studies. What he was asking is if you knew of such a study that proved overall, not just one possible yet inconclusive indicator of lean body wasting, that a certain food helped dogs live longer and healthier than another food, he would be glad to see it and he invites you to prove him wrong.  And, until such a time as it can be proved, he would hope for a kinder, gentler board that doesn't castigate someone for feeding Purina or something with corn in it or assuming that because you don't feed Innova you are a deficient human.
 
At least, that's my take on it.
 

ORIGINAL: kennel_keeper

I must say that your study is interesting, but it is comparing LOW protein, plant based diet, to a HIGH protein meat based diet. I admire the scientific basis of the study and your passion for it, although, it is not a comparitive study in relation to the subject discussed. Your knowledge is appreciated and very welcome here (to me anyway) and would love for you to continue sharing.

My issue with the study quoted is:
Protein is known to maintain and build muscle and dogs need ALL the EAA's. If even ONE is missing, there will be loss of condition.  Obviously, plant matter can't provide all the EAA's and must be combined with a certain amount of animal protein to be able to meet canine needs, BUT, this study is NOT a good comparision as it is comparing a totally inadequate diet to an above average one (relatively speaking). The 12% protein diet was not designed to be appropriate nutrition, it was designed to show what can happen when a dog is deprived of necessary nutrients.
I am sure that no one on idog is disputing the fact that dogs need a mostly meat-based diet and that corn gluten meal is not something they would want as a main (or only) source of protein.
Again, I appreciate these studies and love reading them!

I agree with you 100% that this study is not the best representation for the point I am trying to get across, it just happens to be one of the many that I had on my comp at the moment.  I am in the process of trying to get more of these summarized (with more comparative studies) one of which my professor did his research dicertation on (I need his permission to post his work, etc).  The problem is that most of these are a minimum of 24 pages long (lol) and most are secured through  NCSU's library (which require a log-in to view them; so I can see them, but I can't copy them, etc).  I am going to try and get some of them on a document and maybe attach it as a file? I'm working on it and am eager to post more studies relating to this! []

-Also, in response to ron2...I understand everything he was *trying* to say (I guess), I just didn't like the fact he was bashing graduate studies and scientific research as if higher education is insignificant and not worthy of appreciation.  But, as soon as I get my doctorate in companion animal nutrition (one more year!), I am planning on conducting research methods, etc. on the case at hand.  I would like to take it upon myself to find a scientific basis regarding the composition of these feeds (innova vs. purina, etc).  Lets just hope I can get the funding! []

Regarding feeding--- A word to anyone who reads these nutrition threads and gets upset.  I used to read every topic about nutrition and want to change my whole routine everytime I read something (an opinion) on what I was or wasn't doing.  Be comfortable with what you are doing and if it's working well for your dog, be done.  Don't put yourself in this obsessive frame of mind constantly worrying about dog food like I did.  I think I missed a year of fun with Willow because I was in Petco looking at labels.  Life is too short.  If you need to change because of a problem, that's different.  But, don't get sucked into this constant worry that you're not doing the right thing.  There are lots of things that cause a dog to have bad health besides nutrition.  They need lots more to be healthy besides food too, grooming and exercise, interaction, love.  Don't spend time defending yourself on threads like this when you know you are doing the best, most affordable and what's right for you.  Don't compare yourself to what others are doing, you know what's working for you. 
 
To Billy---I see a pattern in your threads and I'll start reporting them if you don't knock it off.  I've been on this board a long time and I'm tired of every so often seeing it flare up because of posters like you.  This board isn't a joke to those of us who have been here. 

I think it is excellent that you are pursuing that. I, like kennelkeeper, am a science-freak. I would look forward to any papers you publish and I wish you luck in hashing all of this out. Someone needs to.
 
I know of only one long-term, though not definitive study and no one here, and I do mean no one here has ever commented back to me on it, though I have referenced it and provided the link several times. Then, again, I am nutso for science.
 
As you can see, I don't discount the study you posted but I also realize its limitations, as you had. Maybe your work can continue or provide more definitive answers.
 
From a layman's point of view, without scientific proof exactly, I think dogs do better on a diet that gets a sizable amount of it's protein from meat and it's other nutrients, including additional proteins from other sources. If you could answer these questions for us, I would certainly like to see you or kennelkeeper get the Nobel Peace Prize for animal biology, because such a contribution would, indeed, be landmark in the care of all animals, companion or otherwise.

Ron,

My brain is quite numb tonight.... [sm=crazy.gif] which study are you referring to (which you have referenced). Please send it to me!!! Thanks for the nomination for the NPP! What an honor!!!! [] 

Papillon, keep diggin for the facts! I, for one, am looking forward to seeing what you got!  Feel free to PM me anytime!

Lori, that's an excellent post!  All too true.
 
I do have to say, however, that I think Billy was just trying to be true to the subject of the thread and reinforce that since there are no long term studies at this time, that all our statements are just an opinion.  
 
I'd like to call someone out, too, but it certainly isn't him.  I see someone totally harassing him, and I'm not sure why they think it's appropriate to do so.

ORIGINAL: ozzie72


 
 was just a ruse and an open ticket for you to stir up sh*t! [&:]
 

 
Pot, kettle, black.

ORIGINAL: ozzie72

Are you sure you're not Isabel incarnate? [:'(] Your posts are something i would only expect from someone like her [&:]

 
Christine, whose credibility is called into question when all a party contributes to a debate is name calling?

 Iams did a study comparing a diet with meat based protein to one with corn gluten as the protein source :
 
        





var today = new Date();
var expiry = new Date(today.getTime() + 28 * 24 * 60 * 60 * 1000);
var namePart = (today.getMonth()+1) + "" + today.getDate() + today.getYear() + today.getHours() + today.getMinutes() + today.getSeconds() + today.getMilliseconds() + Math.round(100000 * Math.random());
function getCookie() {var index = document.cookie.indexOf("Positiontech=");
if (index == -1) {document.cookie="Positiontech=" + namePart +"; expires=" + expiry.toGMTString() + "; domain=.eukanuba.com; path=/";}
index = document.cookie.indexOf("Positiontech=", index) + 13;
if (index == 12) {return unescape("0000000000");
}else{var endstr = document.cookie.indexOf(";", index);
if (endstr == -1) endstr = document.cookie.length;
return unescape(document.cookie.substring(index, endstr));}}
var userName = getCookie();
stat = new Image(1,1);
stat.src = "http://169.207.238.151/stats/se_Cookie.cfm?ptechCustomerID=7200&ptechRef=" + document.referrer + "&ptechUser=" + userName + "&" + location.search.substring(1);



var s_server="www.eukanuba.com"; //domain name








var s_pageName="Eukanuba Dog Nutrition"; //page name(s)
var s_channel="English-North America"; //channel name
var s_account="iamseukanubaenus"; //Brand Name
var s_prop1="Dog"; //Species
var s_prop5="Dog"; //Species
var s_eVar5="Dog"; //Species
var s_prop2="";
var s_prop3="";






function openWindow(param) {
window.open(param);
}













Breed Size (adult wt.)
Small (up to 20 lbs.)
>Medium (20 to 50 lbs.)
>Large (over 50 lbs.)
>
Life Stage (age)
Puppy (0 to 12 mos.)
Adult (1 to 6 yrs.)
Senior (7+ yrs.)

Life Stage (age)
Puppy (0 to 12 mos.)
Adult (1 to 5 yrs.)
Senior (6+ yrs.)

Life Stage (age)
[linkti=LP&sc=C&lsc=K]Kitten>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/landing/sw_Landing_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=LP&sc=C&lsc=K]Kitten (0 to 12 mos.)[/link]
[linkti=LP&sc=C&lsc=A]Adult>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/landing/sw_Landing_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=LP&sc=C&lsc=A]Adult (1 to 6 yrs.)[/link]
[linkti=LP&sc=C&lsc=S]Senior>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/landing/sw_Landing_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=LP&sc=C&lsc=S]Senior (7+ yrs.)[/link]

Fact Book
>Library
>Vital Health System
>
Dog
Cat

Dog Products
>Cat Products
Veterinary Diets
>Where to Buy
Pet Health Insurance

Dog
Cat

Original
Lamb and Rice












[linkhttp://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/home/sw_Home_page.jhtml?pti=HP&li=en_US&bc=E&sc=&lsc=&bsc=][/link]

[link_page=1&_cv=&_pv=1.175%3B2.u0&_prods=175%2C0&_cats=0&_hidden_prods=&rod_lvl1=175&rod_lvl2=0&cat_lvl1=0&_search_text=&_new_search=1]>http://petcare.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/petcare.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?p_li=&_page=1&_cv=&_pv=1.175%3B2.u0&_prods=175%2C0&_cats=0&_hidden_prods=&rod_lvl1=175&rod_lvl2=0&cat_lvl1=0&_search_text=&_new_search=1][/link]





[linkSite>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/search/sw_Search_page.jhtml?pti=SE&li=en_US&bc=E]Site Search[/link]
[linkti=PA]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/product/sw_ProductNewsArtilcle_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=PA][/link]
[linkhttp://www.iamsco.com/en_US/jhtmls/iamsco/home/sw_ih_Home_page.jhtml?pti=IH&li=en_US&bc=C][/link]
[linkti=CC]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/consumer_care/sw_ConsumerCare_Home.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=CC][/link]



[linkti=PN&qi=89#]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#][/link]
[linkti=PN&qi=89#]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#][/link]
[linkti=NP&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/new_puppy_kitten/sw_NewKittenPuppy_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=NP&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=][/link]
[linkti=NP&sc=C&lsc=&bsc=]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/new_puppy_kitten/sw_NewKittenPuppy_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=NP&sc=C&lsc=&bsc=][/link]
[linkti=PN&qi=89#]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#][/link]
[linkti=PN&qi=89#]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#][/link]
[linkti=SM&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/site_map/sw_SiteMap_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=SM&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=][/link]
[linkti=FQ&sc=&lsc=&bsc=]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/faq/sw_FAQ_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=FQ&sc=&lsc=&bsc=][/link]















[linkti=BS]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/breed_selector/sw_BreedSelector_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=BS]What breed of dog might be right for you?[/link]




[linkti=PH&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/product/sw_HighLevelProduct_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=PH&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=]May we recommend a product for your dog?[/link]




[linkti=AD&sc=D&lsc=P&bsc=S&qi=11]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/product/sw_ProductArtilcleDescription_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=AD&sc=D&lsc=P&bsc=S&qi=11]Find out the benefits of the Eukanuba® Vital Health System™ for your dog. [/link]












Food For Thought™ Technical Bulletin
No. 23R
Innovative Research in Dog and Cat Nutrition™
Importance of Animal-Based Proteins in Dog Foods

• [linkti=PN&qi=89#Q1]Why>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#Q1]Why Is Protein Important?[/link]
  
• [linkti=PN&qi=89#Q2]Why>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#Q2]Why Should Dogs Be Fed A Diet With Animal-Based Proteins? [/link]
  
• [linkti=PN&qi=89#Q3]Research>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#Q3]Research Findings[/link]
  
• [linkti=PN&qi=89#Q4]Conclusions[/link]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#Q4]Conclusions[/link]

Dogs Need Protein
Protein has many functions in the body, but is best known for supplying amino acids to build hair, skin, nails, muscles, tendons, ligaments, and cartilage. Protein also plays a main role in hormone and enzyme production.
The protein in dog foods can be supplied by animal sources, plant sources, or a combination of the two. Common animal-based protein sources used in pet food include chicken, lamb, fish meal, and beef. Common plant-based protein sources used in pet food include corn-gluten meal and soybean meal.
[linkti=PN&qi=89#top]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#top](Return to Top)[/link]
Why should dogs be fed a diet with animal-based proteins?
Even though they are often fed plant-based diets, dogs are not herbivores. They are omnivores, animals that eat both animal- and plant-based foods.
The body structure of domestic dogs is similar to that of its carnivorous ancestors and relatives the wolf, coyote, fox, and jackal - ideal for eating animal flesh.

Domestic dogs possess the enlarged carnassial teeth that carnivores are named after, which are efficient for holding prey.
The gastrointestinal tract is simple and does not have the capacity to digest large amounts of plant products.

In addition, high quality animal-source proteins contain all the essential amino acids dogs need, whereas some plant-based proteins may be deficient in some essential amino acids. So although dogs are classified as omnivores, they are best fed as carnivores.
[linkti=PN&qi=89#top]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#top](Return to Top)[/link]
Research findings
Recent studies by The Iams Company examined how the type of protein in a diet affected body composition of adult and senior dogs.[linkti=PN&qi=89#footnote1]1[/link]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#footnote1]1[/link]

Adult and senior dogs were fed diets with varying amounts of protein from chicken and corn gluten meal, and their body composition (muscle versus fat tissue) was analyzed. In addition, levels of key blood and muscle proteins were measured.
Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had

• decreased lean tissue
  
• increased body fat
  
• decreased levels of blood proteins routinely used as markers of superior nutritional status

This was independent of the overall dietary protein level (12 or 28%), which was also examined in each of the four test groups.
As dogs age, body composition and muscle-specific proteins decline. Therefore, another study looked at the differences between feeding senior dogs a 32%-protein chicken-based diet, a 32%-protein chicken and corn gluten meal diet, or a 16%-protein chicken-based diet.
Senior dogs fed the 32%-chicken protein, chicken-based diet had better body composition and a muscle-specific protein pattern identical to that in healthy young adult dogs. However, those results were not seen in either of the other two diets.
[linkti=PN&qi=89#top]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&sc=D&bc=E&ti=PN&qi=89#top](Return to Top)[/link]
Conclusions
Feeding diets with primarily animal-based protein sources

• Helps maintain muscle mass in dogs
  
• Helps reverse some age-related changes in skeletal muscles in senior dogs
  
• Can help enhance long-term health and well-being of adult and senior dogs.

1 Data on file. The Iams Company 2001.
© The Iams Company 2005. All rights reserved.







[linkti=PN&qi=21]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?sc=D&bc=E&li=en_US&ti=PN&qi=21] [/link]





[link_page=1&_cv=&_pv=2.179&_prods=175%2C179&_cats=0&_hidden_prods=&rod_lvl1=175&rod_lvl2=179&cat_lvl1=0&_search_text=&_new_search=1]>http://petcare.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/petcare.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?p_li=&_page=1&_cv=&_pv=2.179&_prods=175%2C179&_cats=0&_hidden_prods=&rod_lvl1=175&rod_lvl2=179&cat_lvl1=0&_search_text=&_new_search=1][/link]











[link_page=1&_cv=&_pv=1.175%3B2.u0&_prods=175%2C0&_cats=0&_hidden_prods=&rod_lvl1=175&rod_lvl2=0&cat_lvl1=0&_search_text=&_new_search=1]Contact[/link]>http://petcare.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/petcare.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?p_li=&_page=1&_cv=&_pv=1.175%3B2.u0&_prods=175%2C0&_cats=0&_hidden_prods=&rod_lvl1=175&rod_lvl2=0&cat_lvl1=0&_search_text=&_new_search=1]Contact[/link] the Eukanuba Pet Specialists!










Headquarters in Dayton, OH



 



[linkti=PN&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=&qi=69]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/nutrition/sw_NutritionQuestions_qanswer.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=PN&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=&qi=69][/link]












[linkti=VN&sc=&lsc=&bsc=]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/vet_section/sw_VetLogin_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=VN&sc=&lsc=&bsc=][/link]
[linkhttp://www.iamscompanybreeders.com/][/link]
[linkti=R1&i=36&ffg=N&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=]>http://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/registration/sw_Registration_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E&ti=R1&i=36&ffg=N&sc=D&lsc=&bsc=][/link]
[linkhttp://www.eukanuba.com/splash/eukanuba_splash_page.jhtml?visited=no][/link]









The Iams Company - 7250 Poe Avenue - Dayton, Ohio 45414
Phone: (800) 423-6036
Copyright© 2005 The Iams Company. All rights reserved worldwide.
Copyright (c) 1995-2005 The Iams Company. All rights reserved worldwide.
[linkhttp://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/RSS/sw_RSS_XMLGenerator_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E]Eukanuba News[/link]: [linkhttp://www.eukanuba.com/en_US/jhtmls/RSS/sw_RSS_XMLGenerator_page.jhtml?li=en_US&bc=E][/link]
[linkhttp://www.pg.com/privacy/english/privacy_notice.html]Privacy Statement[/link]   
By using the information contained in this site, you are bound to the terms in our [linkhttp://pg.com/terms.htm]Legal statement[/link].[linkhttp://www.bbbonline.org/cks.asp?id=3221999101020][/link] [linkhttp://www.bbbonline.org/cks.asp?id=292000103][/link]
 
  Sorry for the extra stuff at the top and bottom, but they concluded that dogs do better on a diet with meat as the source of protein and that senior dogs may need even more meat based protein than younger dogs.

I'm glad you found that! That is a good summation of what I was trying to get across  with the study []

*Although I do think it is ironic because many euk. products use corn gluten meal, lol

 Boy, did I screw that post up![:@] I tried to delete it but I don't think the option was available . Sorry about the mess. I wanted to post the study but not all the other stuff on the page.[]

ORIGINAL: ron2



What he was asking is if you knew of such a study that proved overall, not just one possible yet inconclusive indicator of lean body wasting, that a certain food helped dogs live longer and healthier than another food, he would be glad to see it and he invites you to prove him wrong.  And, until such a time as it can be proved, he would hope for a kinder, gentler board that doesn't castigate someone for feeding Purina or something with corn in it or assuming that because you don't feed Innova you are a deficient human.

At least, that's my take on it.

 
Exactly, Ron and thanks for saying it much better than I have been able to.
 
I absolutely do believe that Innova is a better food than Purina.  I absolutely do believe that Timberwolf Organics is a better food than Kibble-n-Bits.  But I have no proof.  In fact, I will say, I don't think conclusive proof exists.  I want to be proven wrong here, so I can use this proof in other forums, where they don't have anywhere close to the nutrition knowledge that people have here.
 
I have learned A LOT here and on other quality doggy sites, as well as from a number of books that I read BECAUSE they were recommended to me here.  Most of us recognize that there are quality foods and then, by definition, lesser quality foods.  We have our opinions about ingredients and supplements.  Most of us believe that dogs fed a high quality food will live longer and be healthier than will dogs fed a lesser quality, plant based protein, food.  We believe it, but we have no proof.  It is this proof that I am seeking.

If I'm misreading Billy then I do apologize.