The Noble Quest for Kinder and Gentler "Nutrition" Postings

 My point really was, when someone comes here looking for help with food, they should be treated with respect.  They should not be treated as a lower life form, or as someone who doesn't care about their dog, just because they feed what we see as an inferior food.  I think this is especially important when all we can really offer them is an opinion that is not backed up by scientific evidence, as is the case with "which is the better" dog food.
 
Amen to that!!!

I'll be posting in the Dog Food Poll shortly, to "out" myself on what I've historically fed my dawgs. But remember the post about the shepherd/collie mix that had such a beautiful coat and was in such fantastic shape and was eating Old Roy? That was Stevie, too.

I was the single mom of a very ADHD child who had to be hospitalized several times. I worked hard, but sometimes you just don't have enough money. You have to feed your kid first! My order of priority was Kid, Dogs, then me.

So Ole got good food. What I could afford for the dogs was what they got. Sometimes it was Old Roy, sometimes it was Pedigree, sometimes it was NutroMax. This was before I knew *anything at all* about dog foods. I knew Old Roy wasn't good, but if it was a choice between food and no food....there ya go.

ALL my dogs lived way past their usual lifespans. My vet was amazed. Stevie had beautiful teeth, the most incredibly soft and shiny, healthy coat, as did the other dogs. When Stevie was 14 people still thought he was about 6. The vet said, "Your dogs always look so fantastic, what on earth are you feeding them?" Heh, Pedigree?

I told her it wasn't the food that made them live so long and look so great. It was sleeping on my bed every night. [] In other words, it sure wasn't the food!

So I think while it is very important to feed a good food, which I do with my Sofie now that I know more, I think there may be many more factors relating to the health and well-being of a dog that we know nothing about. Heck, I think there's lots of things that we humans eat and do and hang out around every day that, one day in the future, will turn out to be very bad. They may even kill us all, like the lead pipes in Rome. But you have to keep on living and enjoying every day. You can't worry about every little thing. I can't, anyway. I get paralyzed. []

I certainly think it's a crapshoot as to whether your dog gets sick or not. Sure, you can do health testing for the purebreds, but there is no guarantee. As far as care goes, we do the best we can, but life is full of variation, chance and change. We can't control all of it. Life isn't much fun if we constantly worry over every little thing. We all do the best we can and that's all you can do. And if Pedigree or even Old Roy is all you can afford, I know how that is and I'm not going to flame you!

Probe, you raise a good point. The best most of us can do is offer anecdotal evidence, which will vary from case to case. There's only one person here with a scientific background in the care of various animals and their specific biologies and most people, at least in the past, have outright discounted the science she brings to the discussion. One discussion had dwindled down to just her and me having our science-freak confab. Perhaps, anecdotal evidence seems easier to understand, though it may be less accurate.
 
I'm old school. I think it's better to observe and form a theory based on observation, than to have a theory or thought model and try to fit and mash observation to fit the theory. That is one of the inherent failing of Einstein's theories, but that's another forum and a few books.
 
I like Innova as a food and admire it's concept. And it was giving my dog sneezing fits. Rather than keep feeding it to him because I think it's a good food, I went back to what he did well on, sans sneezing fits. But, I agree, that what I feed him isn't necessarily better than another food. But it is better for my dog than another food.

Having stumbled upon this site along time ago I was on the other end of that LESS than noble quest to convert Purina feeders.  Its not fun and you do get very defensive.  Its as if you don't love you dog if your not into doggy health foods.  Its a trend that hasn't gone unnoticed by Purina by the way.  Natural foods is the buzz now.   I know they know that they have to appeal to the owners even if they don't feel that dogs will do better on natural ingredients than they already do on Pro Plan.  The dogs don't have a say so in this.  Its all about marketing to the owners tastes.  IF dogs had a say so, god knows what my dog would pick!  I do like the information available to me and then my free will and choice comes into play next.  I have gained so much information here which in turn helps me when I deal with customers.  I meet more every week that feed the brands you all recommend here.  And its great! 

Better according to what, peer reviewed scientific study? In fact, are you aware of ANY scientific study that proves BHA is harmful TO DOGS at the level contained in dog food?

Jeez Billy the above comment along with a few others is starting to remind me of Isabel [:'(]

Whats going on?? Your first post is the exact opposite of what you would have thought on the 'other' forum.

What a super-premium dog food would contain if Chase were the one formulating it:
 
cat poop, vegetables that fall of the counter while humans chop them, fast food packaging, cat poop, fresh steaming horse dung, flies, sticks, rotting seal carcass, sea water, cat poop, grass, seagulls (not that he knows what they actually taste like...but anything that much fun to chase MUST taste good), muddy water, cat poop, whatever cookies are being distributed at the dog park, toilet water, leftover human food, socks (particularly if feet are still in them) and cat poop
 
In the meantime, he'll just have to defer to MY choice of food.
 
I think that aggressive responses re: food probably just scare posters away.  If you want to educate people about food choice, what better way than to make them feel WELCOME here.  Dialogue can only happen when both people feel respected.  Otherwise, you're just lecturing and haranguing...and I, for one, wouldn't hang around for long.
 
I found this website when I first bought Chase.  From a pet store.  I'll admit it, but you know what?  I had no idea!  People like me aren't out there to deliberately hurt dogs.  Now that I know, I won't ever do it again.  Anyway, I was lucky to find this site and to learn about nutrition before I even bought my first bag of dog food.  Had I come in a month or two later, when I would probably have been feeding a much lower grade dog food, I would have felt intimidated by some of the responses.  Result: I probably would have left in a huff and continued feeding my dog whatever it was that I'd been feeding him.
 
I think that people have to think about their goals.  Do you want to help people switch their dogs over to higher quality foods?  Or do you want to make people feel stupid and guilty?  You can't do both at the same time.

My dog would add to your doggy-preferred list;
 
food scraps on the street that fell out of a trash can
pecans that fall off of the pecan tree.
Bits of dog food that sat on the patio for a day
Potato salad that I dropped accidently
Potato chips
Doggy biscuits from the bank drive-thru.
Grass.
Field mice.
 
I started feeding Shadow Nutro from local recommendations before I came to this forum. After much education and a 2 week trial with Innova, I am still feeding him Nutro. It's just that I now do so with a better informed decision. I differ from others here in that I personally don't consider a food to be premium because it has apples, carrots, and broccoli, oh my!, in it. In fact, I hesitate to think of any food as premium. I, instead, look for what the dog needs, rather than what I think may be good enough for me to eat. Example, my dog doesn't need a food with a lot of vitamin C in it. Dogs synthesize vitamin C in their liver. In my humble experience so far, the simpler the food, the better. For a few reasons. One, less of a complex arrangement to digest. Second, if their is a food allergy, it is easier to narrow it down. If Shadow really wanted a banana, I wouldn't be able to leave one around. I can leave a carrot on the floor and so will he. He seems to like grains. He will eat a wheat cracker without any provocation on my part. He'll crack and eat pecans that fall outside or fall off of the counter while we are preparing them. He really likes them roasted in Worcerstershire Sauce. I like them, too.
 
I've been through some diatribes and haranguing for my choice and even more so for my opinions. Fortunately, I have very few feelings left. As they say, no brain, no pain. Wait a minute...
 
We are all entitled to an opinion but I agree that how you say something is just as important as what you say. That is a human limitation and no amount of superior knowledge negates the need to be polite. Example, I am a master electrician with 20 years experience. That doesn't mean that I can browbeat people. No one starts out knowing everything and I still learn something every day, even if it's a simple, novel solution to a problem.

Random, I love that list!! []

I would never feed my pets Old Roy, I will never, ever recommend Old Roy but you just can't argue with sucess.

You also can't argue with fantastic genes! []

You know, and to add to this conversation, I have just recently started feeding Bubblegum one of the holistic formulas of Eagle, from the Natural formula that I was mostly feeding with occasional Original.    I have noticed that she is starting to bite herself some, and I am watching her carefully. I know that last spring I wondered if she was getting allergies because she started scratching a bit, and then she stopped after a while. Now its spring again, but I am wondering if its that OR her new holistic formula.  I am a believer in the premium foods....but if she continues this, she will not be eating that holistic food anymore.
 
Hey Ron and Random, can I add to rabbit pellets to your list?  Bubby AND Ollie just love to eat them every morning after the rabbits have a field day in my yard overnight!!

Dyan, Chase is doing really well on Eagle Pack Holistic.  That said, he was also doing really well on the regular Eagle Pack food.  EP seems to be a strange food...some people recommend it above all others, while other people say that it isn't that great.  Meh, it works for us.  *shrug*
 
Maybe when Chase is 2 I'll try Evo, but he's still only 15 months and from what I've read he shouldn't be on Evo yet.
 
What I'd REALLY like to find is a dog food that uses meat that has been sustainably raised and slaughtered.  But I think that I'm dreaming so I'll stick to EP for now! 
 
Cheers,
R
 
PS rabbit droppings (or bunny kibble, as we like to call it) should never have been left off my original list!

Random,  I honestly think that the people that tend to not like Eagle, do so because of corn.  Believe me,,,over that past year alone, everytime I read anything against Eagle is because of CORN CORN CORN!!!!  If they have any other problems with it, they don't seem to say much about it.    I will not sway away from Eagle (unless of course for some unforeseen reason) because it is the only food that was trial tested on my breed.  I may have to go back to the Natural formula if I feel that the holistic formual is causing problems.  Who knows, maybe she is allergic to blueberries......lol!   they don't mix well with rabbit pellets.  lol!

Good post...I do have to say though that I don't think I would have stuck around for this long if the debates and passion didn't happen.  The passion is what kept me here even though it sometimes made me reluctant to post.  The reason I say this is because the people that are very passionate are usually very knowledgable and I learn a ton or at least get pointed in a good direction for doing my own research.  This is not to say that I haven't seen quite a few threads with nitpicking that has caused outright internet brawls between usually just a few individuals.  I guess in those situations I just chalk it up to "it's the internet and missunderstandings happen due to the fact that there is no interaction or tone of voice available."  The reason that's in quotes is because it's an actual though that I have had on multiple occasions (especially with AIM in college).  Also I would like to say to any trouble maker, thank you for your passion...but knocking it down a few notches on certain occasions isn't a bad thing []

Oppinions can conflict greatly but that's why I am here and that's why I have stayed...I learn so much from people with oppinions even in my every day life!  How much do you ever learn from someone that is totally complacent?  But if you find yourself getting all riled-up...just take a deep breath and REMEMBER we are all from different walks of life so you need to afford some patients and try not to take anything personal ESPECIALLY because it is an internet board and some people really can't get their points across well (or at all) through writing!  Take me for example...I am a horible rambler...so I do appoligise but I do love i-dog and the passion and the time people spend sharing their oppinions and knowledge is what makes it what it is!!!  AND I LOVE IT even when certain posts I read make me feel like I am doing something wrong![8D]

What a super-premium dog food would contain if Chase were the one formulating it:

cat poop, vegetables that fall of the counter while humans chop them, fast food packaging, cat poop, fresh steaming horse dung, flies, sticks, rotting seal carcass, sea water, cat poop, grass, seagulls (not that he knows what they actually taste like...but anything that much fun to chase MUST taste good), muddy water, cat poop, whatever cookies are being distributed at the dog park, toilet water, leftover human food, socks (particularly if feet are still in them) and cat poop

LOLOLOLOL I just saw this and thanks for the big laugh! My old Hunter dog would have loved the same. We called him Hunter the Hoover dog.

I think Sofia's preferred food would be those horrible, teasing squirrels, the rabbits outside I won't let her eat, and the rabbit "kibble" that she manages to eat anyway. And voles. Lots of voles. She'd *like* to eat the cats upstairs, but then she might change her mind and play with them instead and then again maybe eat them after she plays with them.

Don't know how "kinder and gentler" this is, at least on her part! ROFL

Some of our terminology is getting a bit ambiguous.  "TO is a better food than Pukanuba" is subjective and the statement of an opinion.     "KNB contains a known carcinogen" is an assertion of fact that is either objectively correct or incorrect. 

Mudpuppy recently posted a scientific study re corn gluten protein v. animal protein.  So, there is objective data out there from which one can make both qualitative statements of fact and base persuasive expressions of opinion about dog food.
 
Also, that one dog ate Iams and lived to be 20, while another ate Innova and died at 3 proves nothing.  We all have relatives who eat crap and are as old as Methusalah but statistically one's odds are much better eating veggies and low fat than Twinkies and Spam.