The Noble Quest for Kinder and Gentler "Nutrition" Postings

I tend to not post to nutrition threads but I do read and learn.
I try to avoid having to duck [8D]

Probe,  I think this is a great thread and you're not wasting your time or ours. I think we scare off some people when they come looking for advice on food, and are told that what they feed is garbage. It is also hard for some to afford the super premium brands and I don't think they should be slammed for feeding a lesser brand if that's the best they can do.

Yes, I agree 100%, I hope I haven't been guilty of throwing crap around. I usually try to stick up for the "underdog" no matter what the conversation.
 Jessies mom is right, some people just can't afford some of these higher priced foods, but it seems that when you have a person that admits to that, you have 12 people saying "but you don't have to feed as much" with the higher premium food. But even though its true that you don't have to feed as much, the price is still not close to what some people can afford. I believe everyone should have a dog to love and take care of, and if they can only afford Purina, then so be it. As  Billy said "there is no proof" that one is better than another. 
I always feel like someone is "looking down on me" for what I feed my dog, corn is ALWAYS brought up, and I have been on the bottom end of some crummy conversations because of it, but I feed it because it has been trial tested on my breed for several years, (a fact that no other company can say that I am aware of)
and I feel safer feeding it than I would anything else, no matter what the ingredients are in it.
We ALL need to think twice before posting on this thread, maybe reread and see how everyone might feel when reading it. 

Okay we've all been nice for long enough, lets get back to it.

I will begin by saying I have always fed a high quality food to my pets because I felt it was the best thing to do for them. Currently my dogs are fed Flint River. They are all doing well on it and it is one of the first foods in nearly 2 1/2 years that my anorexic GSD will eat most of the time without me begging him on my hands and knees. 
 
The Vet clinic where I worked for years would not only ask each time a client came in what they were feeding, they would urge clients to feed their pets high quality foods (if they weren't already) and discussed the benefits of doing so. Many times when a new client came in with a dog with allergy issues we would take bets on which "crappy" food they were feeding. Or dogs with gassy problems or loose stools, etc. you get the drift. We would also do this with those with fantastic coats. Lets guess the "good" food.  Soooo, in comes this retired gentleman with an intact 16 year old male Collie/Shepherd mix.  This dog was not only in amazingly good health, great teeth, lively and spry, he had the MOST beautiful, shiny coat. When we asked the gentleman what food he fed he told us that he fed the best food available. Then I asked WHAT specifically he announced with great pride...........................................................................................................
....................................................................................................................
...................................................................................................................
                                      OLD ROY from Walmart!!
He honestly felt this was wonderful food and I have to tell you from the looks of this dog, FOR THAT dog, it was.
 
I would never feed my pets Old Roy, I will never, ever recommend Old Roy but you just can't argue with sucess.

This was a great thread to start.  Thank you.
 
One thing I'd like to mention about the super premium foods being cheaper in the long run is that, yes, in the long run they would.  But when you don't make a lot of money you may only have $10 or $20 for dog food for the pay period, and so that obviously limits what you're able to get.  I'm sure it's easier once someone actually has their dog switched to that food, but I think making the switch when you're financially strapped may be a bigger hurdle than some here might expect. 
 

It is not a fact, for example, that Timberwolf Organics is a better product than Kibbles-n-Bits.

Wrong.

Kibbles N Bits has BHA in it - a KNOWN carcenogen.  TWO does not.  That alone makes TWO better.

Here is KnBs website with the list of ingredients:

  http://www.kibblesnbits.com/varieties/original.aspx

(Actually just noticed when I was copying the link - BHA is listed TWICE!)

That all being said - I have my opinion on animal nutrition - you have yours.  I am willing to share mine if asked, either directly through emails (which seems to be not working right now - sorry if people think I'm ignoring them) or via the board.

If someone posts that they are feeding KnB and are happy - good for them.  I have better things to do with my time than try to change their mind.  If they WANT to change - they will find a way to start.  And then they might end up at my website (which also seems to be down ... GRRRRR) and I'd be more than willing to help them.

Good post. Probe. Can I call you Probie?
 
My cat lived almost 17 years. 16 years on Purina DeliCat and the remaining year on Purina NF. If I had known "better" I met have fed her a more "premium" food. She might have rejected it, or she might have lived to 17.5 years. 17 years is ancient for a North American Short Hair Tabby. She lived long enough to develope a geriatric problem.
 
Acrimonious or not, I have learned much from the nutrition threads. I also understand that we must do what works. I feed my dog Nutro Large Breed Adult Lamb and Rice and he does great on it. If things changed to where he wasn't doing well and it turned out that some Purina formula, or another Innova formula, or Solid Gold Wolf King was the only thing that would work, I would try and get that, then. IMHO, at that point, for what it's costing, I could just as well homecook, then.
 
I, like you, Probe, try to base my decisions on scientific consideration. And sometimes, I arrive at an opinion differing from others. But I weigh in around the middle of the road. I won't go nuts if Shadow gets a bit of raw something. When we visit the in-laws, he'll eat their dogs Purina Senior formula. She's 14, BTW, which is fairly old for a Lhasa Apso. She's blind in one eye and can't see well out of the other and she has a weak back these days. She's lived long enough to have some geriatric problems.
 
I think we arrive at something we're comfortable with. The one thing I don't do is suggest Nutro, though I think it's a great food and several people local to me have had nothing but great results with it. I am reluctant to, primarily because it has a less than stellar reputation, here, and that is mainly because they use grain. But I live and let live. Each person has an opinion. And a person is not bad if all they can afford is a particular brand. If the dog is doing well on it, stick with it. No one lives forever, not even dogs. If I eat right, exercise, get plenty of sleep, reduce stress, don't smoke or drink, sometime, between 70 and 100, I will die. Or, I could die at 57, like my friend last year. Fortunately, it will be a while until I am 57. Maybe I should eat Purina. Hmm...
 

Yep Benita, doesn't that SAY IT ALL!!!!

ORIGINAL: lauric



Wrong.

Kibbles N Bits has BHA in it - a KNOWN carcenogen.  TWO does not.  That alone makes TWO better.

Here is KnBs website with the list of ingredients:

 
Better according to what, peer reviewed scientific study?  In fact, are you aware of ANY scientific study that proves BHA is harmful TO DOGS at the level contained in dog food?

In fact, are you aware of ANY scientific study that proves BHA is harmful TO DOGS at the level contained in dog food?

The MSDS sheet for BHA:

  http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BU/butylated_hydroxyanisole.html

"Possible human carcinogen; apparently carcinogenic in animal experiments."

That's good enough for me.  I prefer not to take risks I don't have to when it comes to my animals health.

Virtually everything is carcinogenic, at SOME level. []   But what you presented, AS FACT, is that TO is better than K&B because K&B contains BHA.  I am just asking for a scientific study to back that up.  Sorry, but MSDS sheets don't do that.

Ok, maybe I'm just being dense here.

KnB contains BHA.

BHA is a KNOWN carcenogen.

TWO does NOT contain BHA.

So, based on that fact that one food contains a known carcenogen (proven in cases studies on aniamsl) and one does not - that in my mind makes it better.

I don't need a study to prove to me that drinking water is better for me than drinking gasoline.

I stay away from any product be it food or treats that contain potentially harmful chemicals like BHT, BHA and also propylene glycol.  It's jut not worth it to add chemicals they don't have to have, they get enough of that with Frontline and heartworm preventatives and just walking on the street. 

ORIGINAL: lauric

Ok, maybe I'm just being dense here.

KnB contains BHA.

BHA is a KNOWN carcenogen.

TWO does NOT contain BHA.

So, based on that fact that one food contains a known carcenogen (proven in cases studies on aniamsl) and one does not - that in my mind makes it better.

I don't need a study to prove to me that drinking water is better for me than drinking gasoline.

 
I do not disagree with you, Lauri. 
 
TO is a far better food than KnB and for more reason than that KnB contains BHA.  My point, which I am apparently not doing a very good job of making, is that this is only our OPINION.  I submit that neither of us can find a scientific study that PROVES it.  Furthermore, I submit, neither of us would be able to come up what a scientific study proving that BHA is harmful, to dogs, at the level that is contained in dog food, so again, all we have is our opinion.  We should not state it as a fact unless we can back it up.
 
But even that wasn't really the main thrust of my post.  It was just a point that you and I decided to engage in a debate over.  []  My point really was, when someone comes here looking for help with food, they should be treated with respect.  They should not be treated as a lower life form, or as someone who doesn't care about their dog, just because they feed what we see as an inferior food.  I think this is especially important when all we can really offer them is an opinion that is not backed up by scientific evidence, as is the case with "which is the better" dog food.