Corn.....

    • Gold Top Dog
    I'd say that putting Eagle Pack and Purina in the same sentence is pretty much "stirring the pot!"

     
    I agree since I feed Purina!!
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: abbysdad

    I'd say that putting Eagle Pack and Purina in the same sentence is pretty much "stirring the pot!"


    I agree since I feed Purina!!

     
    I don't think that's what she meant... I think she was saying that they shouldn't be grouped together because Eagle Pack is a higher quality food. [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    don't think that's what she meant... I think she was saying that they shouldn't be grouped together because Eagle Pack is a higher quality food.

     
    Or, that it was bound to elicit comments from those who do not feel the foods are comparable. I think that is what "stirring the pot" meant.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I wish that I could say that I went into dog ownership knowing exactly what to feed and that I have never fed a corn laden food because I didn't know any better.  But, alas, mere mortal that I am, when my VET said to feed my shepherds Purina large breed puppy that's what I fed.  This is a high corn food and I have to say comparing the way that Thor and Sheba acted eating it, compared to the way subsequent pups have acted eating Innova, that no, corn doesn't make them "hot" in the way that was asked.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Partially answering my own question. This is from the Merck Vet Manual.
     
    "




    Guaranteed Analysis:





    This part of the label lists the minimal amounts of crude protein and crude fat and the maximal amounts of water and crude fiber on an as-fed (not dry-matter) basis. This analysis does not specify the actual amount of protein, fat, water, and fiber in the product. Instead, it indicates the legal minimums of protein and fat and the legal maximums of water and crude fiber content contained in the product. A laboratory proximate analysis lists the actual nutrient concentrations in the food, and 2 foods that have identical guaranteed analyses may have very different proximate analyses. A guaranteed analysis for protein may list a minimal level of 25%, while the product may (and usually does) contain >25%. A certain variance above or below a minimum or maximum should be expected. Consequently, whenever possible, the manufacturer#%92s average nutrient profile should be used to evaluate a food. Direct product comparisons made between like (similar water content) products (ie, dry vs dry, or canned vs canned) are generally valid. However, comparisons across different food types should be made on a dry-matter or caloric basis. As a rule of thumb, dry-food analyses can be converted to a dry-matter basis by simply adding 10% to the as-is value because most dry foods contain ~10% water (eg, a dry-food protein content of 25% on an as-fed basis is equal to 27.5% dry-matter basis). Canned food analyses can be converted to a dry-matter basis by simply multiplying by 4 because most canned foods contain ~75% water (ie, a canned food protein content of 6% on an as-fed basis is equal to 24% dry-matter basis).
    [linkhttp://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/htm/bc/182904.htm#][/link]



    Ingredient List:





    Ingredients are listed in descending order of weight, on an as-fed basis, in the food. Although a food ingredient (eg, chicken) may be listed first, if that ingredient is 75% moisture, it will contribute a much smaller percentage of total nutrients to the food dry matter. In addition, an ingredient such as corn may be listed by individual types, eg, flaked corn, ground corn, screened corn, kibbled corn, etc. In this case, the total corn amount may be a significant amount of the total food dry matter, but when presented as individual types, each type appears lower on the ingredient list. No reference to quality or grade of an ingredient is allowed to be listed; therefore, it is difficult to evaluate a product solely on the basis of the ingredient list. The value of this list is limited to determining the sources of the proteins and carbohydrates for dogs or cats. This kind of information is useful when evaluating animals that are having an adverse reaction to a food, possibly due to an allergy or intolerance to one or more ingredient sources such as beef, poultry, rice, corn, etc.



    Product formulations can be either fixed or open. In a fixed formula, combinations of ingredients and nutrient profiles do not change regardless of fluctuating market prices of the ingredients. In an open formula, ingredients, and possibly actual nutrient profiles, change depending on availability and market prices.
    "
     
    As said above, grain fractions can be listed and appear further down the list, even though, altogether it may make up a significant amount of the food. I hypothesize that even if the ingredient list only says ground corn, it's going to contain all parts that would ordinarily be listed as fractions. FWIW, before the extrusion process, which is not a super high heat process, a ingredients are ground to a particle size. And the reason fat is added last is because adding it earlier in the cooking process will prevent other reactions from taking place that are necessary. So, when someone says the fat is sprayed on, well of course, it is. At that point in time, that's the only way to add fat. Notice, too, that the article points out what I said before, that the percentage of protein is not defined by the ingredient list, it is defined by the GA on the as-fed basis. Each meal provides a percentage of this or that. If corn is part of the meal and corn does, in fact, contain protein and minerals, as well as carbohydrates, then part of that percentage of protein as fed will be corn-based protein. As yet, I don't know of any rule stating how much animal protein versus vegetable protein is in the as-fed profile and I'm not sure how that could accomplished, if it were so desired.
     
    The only scientific value of the ingredient list is in tracking down a food allergy or avoiding one, if you know what it is. That is, if your dog is allergic to corn, don't feed him or her a food with corn in it. That's all the ingredient list can do for you.
    • Gold Top Dog
    My main general point was that the people who 'defend' corn are usually the ones who feed foods with it in,It was just a curious observation.I dont really have an opinion one way or the other as i've never fed a food with corn in it.Not purposely,it's just never been in any of the foods i've chosen.

     
       I think we tend to be defensive about what we feed regardless of whether or not it has corn if our dogs do well on it. When I first joined this forum several months ago I quickly learned that Eagle Pack was considered by many to be a midgrade food and grain heavy; lately it's been better spoken of. As long as I had confidence in the company making the food I would feed a food with corn but like you it hasn't been in any of the foods I've chosen.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: glenmar

    I wish that I could say that I went into dog ownership knowing exactly what to feed and that I have never fed a corn laden food because I didn't know any better.  But, alas, mere mortal that I am, when my VET said to feed my shepherds Purina large breed puppy that's what I fed.  This is a high corn food and I have to say comparing the way that Thor and Sheba acted eating it, compared to the way subsequent pups have acted eating Innova, that no, corn doesn't make them "hot" in the way that was asked.


    OK.  The question really wasn't meant to trigger a fight, or put down others food, I just was thinking about the way it was with horses and was curious as to whether it worked that way with dogs.  On the plus side, I did learn a few things about corn that I didn't know.....
     
    Can anyone tell me why dogs need linoleic acid?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sometimes I think I am weird because I spend time on dog nutrition boards arguing about the virtues of corn in kibble.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm truely sorry that my comment was taken as a negative.  I truely find it remarkable that people have NEVER fed a lesser quality food.  But, then I have to remember that I'm probably a lot older than most here and have probably had dogs far longer than most, going back to the days that I don't think super premiums even existed.
     
    But again, comparing the "wild" factor in gsd pups, I did not find it to be any different in the two that ate Purina and the subsequent pups.  The only major difference is that my back yard no longer looks like I'm running horses in it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Can anyone tell me why dogs need linoleic acid

     
    Among other things, linoleic acid promote a strong, healthy coat. Siberian Huskies, in history, ate fish, reindeer, and seal, and some grain. Their diet was high in linoleic acid. And they certainly needed their coat to survive.
     
    As an aside, Tony may think he's weird, but I KNOW I am weird. How many electricians do you know who can dig a ditch and quote Shakespeare at the same time?
     
    "Lay on, McDuff! And cursed be he who first cries "Hold! Enough!""
     
    "To be or not to be? That is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take a break from this stupid hole in the ground ..."
     
    "Lo, what do I behold before me? Is it a dagger? Or a shovel?"
     
    "What light through yon window breaks? Is it the sun in the east? Or Juliette? Or the boss man catching me taking a break?"
     
    For the Rainbow Bridge;
    "'Tis a far better place I go to than I have ever been before."
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    How many electricians do you know who can dig a ditch and quote Shakespeare at the same time?

     
    Ok that makes me feel better.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Anything I can do to help.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    Sadly I can not quote Shakespear, only Batman and Robin.  "Holy smoking rocks Batman, did you see the size of the boulder?"  "Yes Robin.and this proves my theory, the Joker is back in town."  LOL

    Seriously, I can not say why anyone defends their food except they beleive in it.  I can read 2000 posts here about a any top of the line food and it would not make me change from what and how I feed.  I go by what I see, not what I read that are opinions of others.   I go by my dogs coats, skin, lack of infections, lack of illnesses, the great physicals and blood work reports they get from the vet, etc. I would hope everyone does the same because Purina, fish, cooked meat and cooked veggies might not work at all for their dog. 

    I do not care if there are chicken guts, cow lungs, pigs feet, etc in what I give my dogs so long as it keeps them in the condition they are in today.  If they were to kill these critters they would be eating that stuff anyway.  And since they are not allergic to corn, I have no problem with it either.    If ever a problem arises with their food, i will be in line at the store the next day to get something else.

    Now, I am going to go make myself a big dish of old time rice pudding (done in oven) and I am going to also make one for the dogs, less the sugar.  I think they will enjoy it.
     
    EDITED TO ADD.  The rice pudding will a late dessert as they have had their supper.  The girls had their Purina and Buck had his Science Diet k/d and all had salmon, unsalted, canned green beans and carrots mixed in.  Last night they had calf liver boiled with chopped sweet potatos, frozen peas & carrots, Frosty paws for dessert.  Tomorrow it is boiled ground turkey, yellow squash, white potato and frozen peas and carrots and more of the rice pudding for dessert.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think it's the fact that it only has one meat followed by 3 grains,and the low fat and protein levels  that  puts me off.If memory serves the maintenance and original formula's are worse than the one posted above.
    Also, i have noticed EP is never in the recommended food list for fussy dogs,or dogs who prefer high meat(taste and smell) diets.My dogs will eat pretty much anything i put before them,but they half heartedly picked at EP and then stopped eating it all together.This is something i have never seen them do with any premium dry food.All the dry foods they get are heavily meat based and they all tend to have that meaty smell,which i noticed EP did not have...

    There are too many super premium foods available with much better ingredients than EP.With the system i use to judge foods i would class it as a midgrade food.But each to their own and i dont think bad of anyone who feeds EP,it's by no means a bad food,if their dogs do well on it then who am i to judge! [:)]
     Sorry, but this whole post sounds offensive to EP...and yes,,,I guess I am feeling offended by that. Abbysdad,,, I am not really KNOCKING Purina,,,but since MOST everyone else here does, yes,,,I find it offensive that Purina and EP are put in the same sentence. Luv,,,you hit the nail on the head,,,, I don't think that Purina and EP should be grouped together (according to MOST people on this forum) because EP IS a better quality food. Ron,,,you are REALLY right by saying: Or, that it was bound to elicit comments from those who do not feel the foods are comparable. I think that is what "stirring the pot" meant.  [color=#400040]Mainly because I would not have written that above statement without looking for an argument.
    [/color] Sorry,,,don't mean to offend you Edie,,,,this is just the way I see what you said.  I shouldn't feel offended by this,,,but I do.   I personally have been feeding the EP formulas that have no corn in it...but will continue again soon....  but I just really have a hard time listening to the same old corn arguments...its never ending...none of us will convince the other that corn is good or bad!  None of us are advocating corn,,,,,we just feed what we think is best, and end up always defending ourselves because of it.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Dogs need to consume foods that contain adequate amounts of Linoleic acid (an EFA) because it can't be synthesized by the body. It is found in many seed oils and poultry and pork fats.
    It is needed for healthy skin and coat, and to promote normal kidney function and also reproduction. When the O'3 & O'6 ratio's are balanced and conversions are taking place, they can help relieve inflamation