Corn.....

  I agree with kennel_keeper, pug2, and abbysdad. Corn is a good source of linoleic acid and when processed for kibble it is very digestible. Here is something interesting about the the "temperment "issue;
                        [linkhttp://www.eaglepack.com/pages/Whole_grains.html]http://www.eaglepack.com/pages/Whole_grains.html[/link]
    .  I know of dog obedience trainers who take dogs off foods containing corn because they say the dogs work better.  Why is that?
A.  Studies show that varying energy levels in foods can affect trainability and temperament, but corn per se is not the culprit here.  The real problem is the total Kcal's of the diet.  The answer is to feed a true meat-based diet with more moderate levels of corn, or other carbohydrates, which in turn reduces Kcal's (i.e., corn not listed as the first ingredient).
 
 Regarding allergies;
A complete literature review shows that corn is rarely incriminated as causing allergies.  "Small Animal Clinical Nutrition" addresses this twice:  "There have been only six confirmed cases of allergy to corn in dogs reported in the veterinary literature out of 253 total cases."  "Corn is a nutritionally superior grain compared with others used in pet foods because it contains a balance of nutrients not found in other grains.  Corn provides a highly available source of complex carbohydrates and substantial quantities of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid important for healthy skin.  Corn also provides essential amino acids and fiber.  In a survey of veterinary dermatologists, corn was not listed among the ingredients most often suspected to cause food allergies.  A review of over 200 confirmed canine cases of food allergy in the veterinary literature revealed only three were caused by corn
 
    Jessie's food doesn't have corn because she is allergic to chicken and the foods that don't have chicken also don't seem to have corn but I wouldn't avoid it intentionally.

 am not sure... I know that corn shouldn't be the staple of anyone's diet, including humans, because it is difficult to digest, and there are many dogs who are allergic to it. 

Not only is it not difficult to digest when put in dog food,,, studies show that there are very little allergies to corn.
 
I was curious [] Does everyone here who advocates corn happen to feed a food with corn in it or one that could be classed as 'grain heavy'?
 
I fed Bubblegum EP Natural part of the time,,,I certainly don't consider that "grain heavy" but corn is in that formula.  I only got away from it because I don't want to feed corn every day as she had been getting...but as soon as I finish with my holistic formulas which do not contain corn,,, I will go back to purchasing one bag of the natural and one holistic and trade off from week to week. 
My son feeds his Dane between EP natural and original which both contain corn. 
 

I don't see anyone actually advocating corn.  To me that would be someone saying that the rest of us are all wet and that CORN is the best protein source to feed dogs.
 
I would not be adverse to feeding a food with SOME corn in it.  Corn isn't this terrible toxic ingredient that some folks try to make it out to be.

I agree Glenda, no one is advocating corn. I don't think. I will definately use food with corn in it, but as I stated in my earlier post that I don't think people on this forum can even honestly answer the original question because they don't use food that is primarily corn based.

So, thus far eaglepack,nutro and purina feeders,all either contain corn or are relatively grainy.FTR i have always thought EP was a touch on the grain heavy side,JMO.

So, thus far eaglepack,nutro and purina feeders,all either contain corn or are relatively grainy.FTR i have always thought EP was a touch on the grain heavy side,JMO

Depends on what you mean by grain heavy; their holistic formulas, which I feed Jessie, are 40% meat meal. I supplement the kibble with canned Eagle, raw or cooked meat, eggs, and Nature's Variety Raw Medallions. Jessie is allergic to chicken and Eagle Pack is the best non chicken kibble I can find in our area. Jessie does great on it and the vet comments on how good her skin and coat look, especially for an allergy dog ( besides her allergy to chicken, she has numerous environmental allergies).  He has also commented more than once on her muscle tone. The grains they use are herbicide free.

ORIGINAL: Edie

So, thus far eaglepack,nutro and purina feeders,all either contain corn or are relatively grainy.FTR i have always thought EP was a touch on the grain heavy side,JMO.

 
As far as EP is concerned, I just don't see why you would feel it's grain heavy. While some of their Holistic formulas do have a couple of "grains" listed, they are healthy grains that add to the diet (not just there for bulk).
 




Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Anchovy & Sardine Meal, Pork Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Whole Ground Barley, Tomato Pomace, Dried Egg Product, Flaxseed, Canola Oil, Dried Apples, Cheese Meal, Dried Carrots, Air Dried Peas, Sun-cured Alfalfa, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Quinoa (Organic), Inulin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Dried Cranberries, Dried Blueberries, Beta-Carotene, Dandelion (Organic), Garlic, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes (sequestered) of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus lichenformis, Bacillus coagulins, Aspergillus oryzae and Aspergillus niger. 

I think it's the fact that it only has one meat followed by 3 grains,and the low fat and protein levels  that puts me off.If memory serves the maintenance and original formula's are worse than the one posted above.
Also, i have noticed EP is never in the recommended food list for fussy dogs,or dogs who prefer high meat(taste and smell) diets.My dogs will eat pretty much anything i put before them,but they half heartedly picked at EP and then stopped eating it all together.This is something i have never seen them do with any premium dry food.All the dry foods they get are heavily meat based and they all tend to have that meaty smell,which i noticed EP did not have...

There are too many super premium foods available with much better ingredients than EP.With the system i use to judge foods i would class it as a midgrade food.But each to their own and i dont think bad of anyone who feeds EP,it's by no means a bad food,if their dogs do well on it then who am i to judge! []

I'd say that putting Eagle Pack and Purina in the same sentence is pretty much "stirring the pot!"
 
 

From Great Dane Lady website:
 Note that these are the formulas with corn.
* Note: the largest feed trials ever done on giant breeds have been done using Eagle Natural Forumla, Eagle Large and Puppy Giant Breed Formulas.

I'd say that putting Eagle Pack and Purina in the same sentence is pretty much "stirring the pot!"

What are you talking about? You make it sound like i was comparing eaglepack to purina![8|]

I think it's the fact that it only has one meat followed by 3 grains,and the low fat and protein levels

I don't want to get too far OT but a food should be judged by more than just the amount of protein but also the quality; some dog foods with a higher amount of protein use gluten meal and other grain sources to have a higher protein level; EP's foods are 40% meat meal. I like the fat levels because Jessie is the size of a Lab and at 7 1/2 needs less fat than a younger dog according to recent research by companies like Waltman , Purina, and Eukanuba. According to the same research she also needs about 26% to 32% protein so I up the protein by supplementing her food with meat. The "one meat" foods you're referring to are allergy formulas and are great for Jessie because of her allergy to chicken; I rotate the duck, lamb, and fish.

No problems I honestly dont expect an explanation from anyone about what they feed or why. We all have differing opinions on what constitutes a good food and what our individual dogs need to stay at optimal health.

My main general point was that the people who 'defend' corn are usually the ones who feed foods with it in,It was just a curious observation.I dont really have an opinion one way or the other as i've never fed a food with corn in it.Not purposely,it's just never been in any of the foods i've chosen.

You might be able to correct me on this.
 
From what I understand, the ingredient list and the guaranteed analysis (GA) do not equal each other. The ingredient list, according to the FDA is presence of ingredient by prevalence of weight, rather than volume, as even I previously thought. Well a cup of meat weighs more than a cup of flower, due to density of the particles, etc. So, doesn't have to take up much volume in order to have the prevalence of weight.
 
In the GA, it lists the amount of crude protein min, crude fat, min, and so on. It does not differentiate the protein into animal and NFEs. You could have 3 meat sources listed but that doesn't mean the food is 50 percent meat. The GA, as fed, is still the defining characteristic, n'est pas? 24 percent protein is still 24 percent protein, regardless of which ingredients provide that 24 percent protein. Or am I wrong?
 

Seeing as how science and math were never my strong points, i will take your word for it as it does sound reasonable!