Chronic Diarrhea Vet says allergies and prescribes Hill's Ultra ZD

 Oy! Sorry about your hassles with your dog. My boyfriend's parents went through a similar issue with their boxer, who they got as a rescue at 3 years old. Turns out the dog is allergic to rice, and all of the "sensitive stomach" foods the vet etc. gave the dog had rice. He's now eating Natural Balance sweet potato and fish and couldn't be happier, but it was a loooong 3 months for him with constant diarrhea. Not fun!!!

Most vets don't seem to be very good with food/food allergies, I've found... with the boxer, they (like you) had him in to the vet's **constantly** for deworming, antibiotics, anti-diarrheals, prescription diets... the vet never even mentioned an elimination diet. The vet suggested "cottage cheese and rice" or "hamburger and rice" for a week to settle the dog's stomach... but that's not very helpful when it's rice that's causing the issues! Thanks to this forum and reading about other dogs' issues, I suggested they try an elimination diet, or at least an allergy food. And then, lo and behold, everything was fixed!

I'm glad you found something that works for your dog :) I know how frustrating it can be when nothing you're trying is doing any good!!

Welcome to the forums, too :)

 Z/D isn't chicken. It's hydrolysed chicken, which is completely and totally different. I had a dog that was incredibly sensitive to chicken, and she thrived on Z/D for almost a year.

I'm glad to hear that your girl has gotten so much better, on the lamb food, and hope it continues to work with her. 

It's always interesting to me -- so many vets prescribe chicken and rice ... and in TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) one of their basic food tenets is that both chilcken *and* rice are inflammatory foods -- if something is prone to being inflamed that will worsen it. 

Not an "allergy" -- but literally just something that will promote inflammation rather than settle it.

 My parents' epileptic dog did amazing on the Nutro Natural Choice L&R - her seizure frequency dropped like a rock when they switched her onto that food.

 Sadly, I tried both California Natural's Lamb and Rice dry food and then Nutro's Lamb and Rice wet food for our dog, Cody, who has the same issues (chronic soft stools and/or diarrhea and vet wants us to try z/d for 10 weeks to see if he has food allergies), and it didn't help. In fact, he was much, much worse on the Nutro. :(  I had high hopes!

 Worth trying, but wanted to put this out there so folks know that it isn't a fail-safe cure-all for dogs with diarrhea.  :)

Beachgal

and vet wants us to try z/d for 10 weeks to see if he has food allergies

Jennie makes the point above -- ZD doesn't really rule out "allergies" because there are tons of potential allergens IN ZD.  The difference is that the whole thing is **hydrolyzed** so the particles are SO small it's literally digested like it was totally different stuff.

I'm not touting the stuff - but that's essentially why it does help **some** dogs.

 You honestly might want to do an actual elmination diet (home cooked -- just TWO items that you give for like 3 weeks (it's not intended to be balanced -- just pick a protein the dog hasn't had and a veg the dog hasn't had) and if it resolves the diarrhea you then add things in **one at a time** so you can determine "Oops THAT doesn't work well!" and figure out what the problem is.

Sorry you're having such a hard time -- it can be really tough to deal with.

 Also, whenever a dog has chronic diarrhea, it can be a good idea to treat for giardia even if the fecal is normal, since giardia is sometimes hard to find and doesn't show up on the test even though the dog has it.  I find that the ingredients that most commonly cause food allergies are chicken, soy, wheat, and there are also a lot of dogs allergic to grain mold, so when they go to a grain free diet they get better!

 Thanks for the great tips!  Sadly, Cody was tested extensively for parasites, several times, and came up entirely clean.  He did have a bout with whipworms, but has been clean of them for more that two months now, and the vet doubts that he would be dealing with side effects from that.

 I get the idea of an elimination diet, but Cody was a rescue, and it'd be very hard to determine what protein source he'd never had. In his short life, he was at a puppy mill, with a rescuing veterinarian, flown to NY, with a shelter, and then with us.  So he's had at least three different foods, if not many more.  It'd be tough to be sure that the protein and veg I fed him was truly novel.  For instance, I'd assume he wouldn't have buffalo or venison because of the rarity and expense, but, frankly, I'd have thought the same about lamb, and he had a very strong aversive reaction to it.  I'm not sure what veg I could choose, and the only protein I'd be fairly sure he hadn't had would be something like chickpeas.  If the z/d doesn't help, though, we might try one of those things.  Cody strains so hard and seems quite aggravated by his bowels, and I'm afraid it's a problem worse than a food allergy, but our vet says ruling that out is the first step.

 Cody has been on both a grain-free and a soy/wheat/corn-free diet and neither helped, sadly.  I can totally see how that could help many dogs, though!

My vet believes that because the hydrolyzed protein in the z/d is so small the system doesn't recognize it, it's a true elimination diet, because it takes away all the possible allergens.  Mind, the first ingredient is "starch" and who knows what that is?  I'm definitely not a fan of Science Diet's food, but I'm willing to try this, because nothing I've tried has helped, and because I've had the experience (frustrating though it was), of trying all the possible ways of treating my other dog's struvite crystals with natural methods/foods, only to find that prescription food was the only thing that helped her. Ugh.  

Thanks again for the great advice!

I have see elmination diets of things like green peas and mashed potato! 

And sometimes you just have to guess. 

Truly tho??  If you are at all inclined to try something a bit alternative, I have had **such** good luck with TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary medicine) -- it's incredible what they can do to determine - just by their exam of the dog -- what may be the problem (because certain foods can be linked to certain body areas, and certain times of the day even). 

http://www.tcvm.com -- there's a locator on the left.  And honestly -- rather than spending thousands of dollards on allergy testing, TCVM can be a cheaper option.  No testing -- just a different type of exam.  I've used it for years on many different dogs so if you want to email me feel free!!  I'm glad to try to help.

I agree with Ann---treat for giardia, even if the tests come up negative.  It rarely shows up in exams and wreaks havoc on the GI system, and may cause long term damage.  Good article:  http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=739

Also, an elimination diet is in order, and as Callie said, sometimes a best guess is the way to go.  Being that he was a puppy mill dog, best guess is that he was likely fed a diet of chicken, lamb, corn and many various grains (they are lucky to be fed some sort of "gruel"--cheapest ingredients possible).  I have had two puppy mill dogs that have had tons of dietary issues.  Finding a tcvm vet is a great start, as Callie suggests.  They treat nutrition in a different way--there are "cooling" foods that would be beneficial as to not exacerbate an already inflamed condition (his gut).  Things that have worked for us are bison, duck, turkey, beef, and no grains at all--you can try sweet peas, squash, sweet potatoes, tapioca as a carb source, as he was likely not exposed to them in a mill situation. 

calliecritturs

Jennie makes the point above -- ZD doesn't really rule out "allergies" because there are tons of potential allergens IN ZD.  The difference is that the whole thing is **hydrolyzed** so the particles are SO small it's literally digested like it was totally different stuff.

I'm not touting the stuff - but that's essentially why it does help **some** dogs.

   I used it for an elimination diet for Jessie; she did very well on it except for having loose stools. Cellulose is used as the fiber source because it's not nearly as common as beet pulp so dogs aren't likely to react to it, but Jessie doesn't do well with insoluble fiber like cellulose and had runny stools. A lot of dogs have soft stools on z/d for that reason. I had to mix pumpkin in it to firm her stools.

   Jessie has chronic pancreatitis and I tried California Natural Low Fat Rice and Lamb. She had frequent gas, her stomach made rumbly noises (for lack of a better word), and she strained when passing stool. After five months, I changed her to Nutro Natural Choice Venison Meal and Whole Brown Rice; it's supposed to be for dogs with a sensitive stomach. Her problems went away and she's been doing very good; she's been on it for a year now. In her case, I don't think the California Natural had enough fiber; it was 2% fiber and the Nutro is 4%. I also believe she needs a soluble fiber like beet pulp.

  Jessie has several food allergies and I can tell you that her symptoms are ear infections, chewing her feet, rubbing her face, and chewing her anus (the area under her tail). It's much more likely that your dog has giardia, as the others have mentioned, or perhaps IBD or IBS. Or, maybe she needs a certain amount and type of fiber like Jessie. If treating her for giardia doesn't help, you may want to consider having her scoped. Also, it may help to give her a good probiotic, such as FortiFlora;

FortiFlora® Canine Nutritional Supplements | Purina Veterinary Diets  

 I also use ProBioBeads for Jessie; 

Amazon.com: ProBio Beads - 30 - Bead: Health & Personal Care

 Jessie has a tendency for overgrowth of clostridium bacteria in her intestines because of her chronic pancreatitis. It causes mucousy diarrhea. Since she's been getting probiotics she hasn't anymore problems with it.

Honestly, before you go crazy with the z/d and elimination diets,  I'd suggest you try a food that does NOT contain rice AND has beet pulp and see how how he does.  Nutro has a grain free line that looked like it would work.  If this doesn't work then you always have the other options but in my EXTENSIVE experience with this problem with my dog I think Janice is right on with the TYPE of fiber being used can really make a difference.  

If you are interested, Sabine Contreras of Better Dog Care does nutrition consultations by phone.  She wrote The Dog Food Project web site, too, and is quite knowledgeable.  She might be able to put together a diet that is higher quality with similar emphasis on the type of fiber or help you do an elimination diet.  According to WebMD dog section, "The most common allergens are beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb, soy, pork, rabbit, and fish. And, most dogs are usually allergic to more than one thing."  So, with that in mind, if it were me, I might try to go grain free, take Lori's advice about the rice/beet pulp, and use a single source protein the dog has not eaten before, such as duck or venison.   

 Thanks for the wonderful ideas!  I've worked with Sabine before and she's fantastic.  She helped me put together a home diet for our other dog.

 Cody's been on a variety of foods, I'm sure. He came to us with very soft stools, straining, gas sounds, flatulence, and signs of discomfort (sudden nipping at his intestinal area).  He also had whipworms, and the vet figured the other issues were a result of that.  Once the worms were cleaned up, he still had issues. He did well on a bland chicken and rice diet, but that was while taking other anti-diarrheal medicines (one of which he can no longer take, because he has dry eyes with sulfa drugs).  His first food with us was Orijen Puppy. Ingredients are below:

INGREDIENTS

Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sweet potato, peas, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, fresh boneless herring*, organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.

As you can see, it doesn't have rice or grains and has probiotics. I don't know whether pea fiber is soluble or insoluble, nor am I sure about chicory root. I don't know whether the vegetables contribute some fiber (Sabine explained that dogs have trouble processing vegetables and breaking them down), but the total content is 3%.  Sadly, Cody did very badly on this diet.

 Thinking that the main difference between this food and the bland diet was fat (the puppy food has 22% fat), I went to two other options:

Blue Wilderness Chicken (no grains, fiber was 6.5%, fat was 15%)

Ingredients:
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Potato Starch, Turkey Meal, Peas, Chicken Fat (naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Potatoes, Tomato Pomace (natural source of Lycopene), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flaxseed (natural source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids), Alfalfa Meal, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Turmeric, Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Niacin (Vitamin B3), d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Choline Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Salt, Caramel, Potassium Chloride, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Bacillus subtilis, Enterococcus faecium. 

 California Natural Chicken and Rice (very low fiber 0.8%, but also low fat: 11%) . The only source of fiber seems to be rice.

 I supplemented both with Psyllium Husk, which is soluble.

 He did exactly the same on either food (soft stools--have a form when they are produced, but don't hold it when you pick them up, and diarrhea, lots of straining), though one has rice and the other doesn't.

 What treatments have you seen to be effective for giardia?