AIHA or IMHA

willowchow

She feels like while Frontline is the safest if you are going to give any sort of topical---it's not helpful in this case because it doesn't repel the ticks--it kills them after they bite the dog--which could cause this to relapse.  So, she did not recommend that I use it any more. 

Hmmm -- ask her more about that?  Frontline kills on contact NOT after the parasite bites the dog.  So theoretically it *could* kill the tick after it's bitten but it's not systemic (like Revolution) where the pesticide is in the blood so it *only* kills when the parasite bites the dog.

GratefulDawg

If she does not have enough in her blood then she may not getting the full benefit and if its over the range she may be overdosing.  Did you have Billy checked for Cyclosporine levels? 

 Yes -- we did it once a month usually when we had the full blood panel done -- sometimes we checked the iron levels as well.  HOWEVER -- they haven't checked the level YET because she probably hasn't even gotten to the optimum level yet.  That takes a couple of months.  But eventually that was part of "how" they did the wean off -- it did get a bit high at one point so we were able to bring it down some. 

However, in honesty, because you're using the human drug that might -- at least in MY thot -- make it wise to go ahead and check it the next time they do a full blood panel (Antech calls it a "chem panel";).  yeah, they'll have to send it to the university to be checked -- that's not a typical lab thing to check.  But given that she's had trouble making blood, I would make sure they think to check the iron level as well. 

GratefulDawg

I feel like I have to keep on top of these things because the vets are not seeming to be concerned unless I bring things up.

Frankly, you're just being a really good guardian!  Remember -- YOU know this dog ... you know this dog better than ***ANYONE ELSE*** so you're going to see things and pick up on things that no one else will see or pick up on. 

Vets don't have crystal balls -- they really don't.  And the other thing is -- and this really IS a big huge g-NOR-mus thing to a vet -- they try to be really conscious of how much of YOUR money they are spending.  So if a test isn't critical *yet* or if it's not a big huge deal and THEY don't see the reason for doing it -- then they aren't going to suggest it.

Remember -- *YOU* and only you would have caught the arthritis/lameness thing.  A vet wouldn't because they just plain don't see the dog enough, nor are they seeing the changes **which to YOU** are plain and obvious.

A vet is going to know the typical side effects of a drug -- but not all the weird ones.  YOU are going to know "Hmm, that doesn't seem right" and then *You* go looking for an answer. 

So a vet will often not raise an issue if they think it's overly expensive OR if they really think they don't want to worry the owner/guardian more than is necessary.  Bottom line -- they are business people -- and they don't want a reputation as an alarmist.  Because then some people just assume 'You're doing this to get more money out of me' -- and they can't win.

So people like you, me, Megan, Lori -- we're more proactive because we KNOW our dogs and know what is and is NOT normal.  And we're also willing to spend the extra money to find out what's going on.  A lot of folks either don't want to do that, or they can't afford to even think about it. 

does that make sense?  I'm not really defending them -- I just understand why they sometimes don't raise certain issues. 

calliecritturs

Hmmm -- ask her more about that?  Frontline kills on contact NOT after the parasite bites the dog.  So theoretically it *could* kill the tick after it's bitten but it's not systemic (like Revolution) where the pesticide is in the blood so it *only* kills when the parasite bites the dog.

The website says it kills fleas within 18 hrs and ticks within 48. 

And, it does say they don't have to be bitten for it to work.  However, that has not been my experience.  And I really want something now that repels them rather than kills them once they are on her.

Too bad, it cannot be proven that the Lyme caused the IMT because this company's faulty product would probably be liable.

calliecritturs

I feel like I have to keep on top of these things because the vets are not seeming to be concerned unless I bring things up.

Yes, I had to bring up things that I was researching also.  But, once my vet realized that I understood a lot more than most she offered more too. 

Yep, Fipronil (Frontline) kills on contact

There are other products like Lufenuron that require fleas to bite (Lufenuron doesn't do ticks) and that is the only common "need to bite" growth regulator med I have heard of -- since Luf is a med messes up the egg/larvae cycle in the adults, but does not kill them.

Boy, I wish I realized just how much that stuff wasn't doing what it was supposed to.  When I think of all the money I spent. . .

 I live in the Ozark Mountains of Arkansas.  In the woods.  Lot of Ticks.  Thinking I was doing the right thing, I had my dogs on Interceptor, FrontlinePlus and Preventic Collars.  Now I have to say this, I have never had fleas in the house nor have I had to pull a tick out.  I have seen the dogs bring in a tick or two but apparently they didn't have any interest in biting them. 

I used to use Sentinel (its been 6-7 years) and Preventic and I used to get attached ticks now and then and pull them out.  The vet said that the tick would bite but would detatch itself and die before it could spread lyme disease, and that the tick had to be attatched for quite some time before disease was spread.  Don't know how fast a tick bite can cause an autoimmune response though.

I know Cyclops was tested for tick disease on the day she was diagnosed with IMHA.  I knew she hadn't gotten IMHA because of a tick.  

Well its like Callie said, you're darned if you do, darned if you don't.  The Preventic Collar I have discontinued for both dogs.  I don't think I can discontinue the Interceptor or the FrontLinePlus - I am thinking an alergic reaction to flea bites or tick disease due to lack of FLP would not be good.  Heartworm and/or the other parasites/worms that Interceptor controls wouldn't be good either.  

I used to give both Interceptor and FLP the first of each month, 12 months a year.  Thinking of course I was doing the right thing. 

Its funny, I see some dog owners who buy their dogs "Old Roy" dog food from Wal-Mart, never vaccinate, never pay attention to the dog and certainly never go to the vet and the dog lives to be a ripe old age.  You try to do things right and this happens.  Kind of like when the healthy, not overweight, non smoker, jog every morning person drops dead from a heart attack.

I'm rambling.. its late.  Nice to see your posts - say hi to Willow =)

willowchow

Boy, I wish I realized just how much that stuff wasn't doing what it was supposed to.  When I think of all the money I spent. .

???  Lufeneuron is the old Program drug -- ALL that did was make baby fleas not survive (birth control for fleas) but that wasn't what you used on Willow, right? 

Frontline Plus kills on contact -- the 'plus' is a topical egg inhibitor. 

Frontline Plus IS NOT SYSTEMIC.  I want to make a big point of that here.  The drugs that are the bittest risk are systemic -- they go into the body and ***STAY*** there all month long (things like Revolution, BioSpot, and Promeris)

GratefulDawg

The vet said that the tick would bite but would detatch itself and die before it could spread lyme disease, and that the tick had to be attatched for quite some time before disease was spread.  Don't know how fast a tick bite can cause an autoimmune response though.

Fleas spread tick disease when they FEED.  Fleas have a mouth apparatus that is like a pair of jagged Ginsu Knives (sorry, it's an appropriate comparison) -- they unfold and insert down in the skin of the dog so they anchor in (these fangs will stay anchored beyond the head staying on the tick).  It is after these 'fangs' are in place and the tick begins to feed that tick disease is actually  spread.

It generally takes 10 - 15 hours (this was the last thing *I* was told at a seminar I attended at UF 3-4 years ago) for the flea to choose a spot, insert the fangs and begin to actually feed.  So a tick you find NOT attached has not spread tick disease.  It's when you find a tick already attached that has the potential for having spread disease.

The amount of time it takes for Frontline Plus/Frontline to kill is usually within the amount of time required for the tick to attach itself fully and feed.  That's the edge Frontline has --- because it generally kills before ticks have had a chance to embed.

GratefulDawg

Don't know how fast a tick bite can cause an autoimmune response though.

I don't want to cause mis-understanding because of what I said ... a tick bite doesn't necessarily **cause** auto-immune disease. 

 A tick bite, in Billy's case, caused ANTIBODIES to form.  The body's immune system responded (as it *should* have) to the tick disease cells and caused the antibodies to form.  **HOWEVER** Billy's body didn't stop there ... once it encountered the antibodies IT MADE, it generalized and said "hmm, we don't like THIS either -- these new antibodies are invaders TOO"

Auto-immune disease is somehow caused when the body responds wrongly to disease and stress.  The immune system should go "On" and "Off".  Pure and simple.  When it encounters as "bad thing" (or an "invader";) the immune system should go "On" and kill it.

THEN the immune system should go "Off" and stop working on that thing.  But for some reason (and this is what they're trying to identify -- and holistic companies as well as pharmaceutical companies are trying desperately to do this) the body goes overboard.  The Immune system doesn't go "Off" the way it should -- instead it keeps ON RESPONDING when it should have stopped and gone "off".  It actually begins LOOKING for things to respond to -- this is what doctors/vets call "generalization" --

 Billy's body "generalized" -- the immune system perceived the 'threat' of the tick disease properly.  But instead of then shutting off after it had successfully made the antibodies against the tick disease -- it kept on looking for things to attack and attacked those antibodies.  From there, the body kept ON going with the immune system on full throttle -- from antibodies it then generalized to red blood cells in general.  Then it went even deeper and went into the bone marrow to find reticulocytes (baby red blood cells) to kill.

In Cyclops' case her body has targeted reticulocytes OVER adult red blood cells.  Just a different way her body has turned it's immune 'defense'. 

It isn't a case of "how long for it to cause auto-immune disease" -- it's simply the case that the body that is malfunctioning LOOKS FOR an excuse.  It looks for a toxin, or some "abnormal" thing to wage war against. 

In the case of a dog who gets auto-immune because of stress -- we're more vulnerable when we're tired and stressed and run-down generally.  That's why we humans get colds/flu when we're generally tired (like after Christmas -- the season "stressed" us, we were racing around and in a weakened state we're more susceptible to disease). 

For Pirate and Willow their bodies targeted platelets (which clot blood).  It's all impossible, so far, to predict.  But this is why auto-immune becomes more scarey because once it's gotten the habit of looking TOO HARD for things to attack, it can generalize in other areas (like my body going from having rheumatoid arthritis to psoriasis).  And it can switch "diseases" most any time.  Which is why I have to be careful what antibiotics, etc. I take -- so I can avoid the ones known to be auto-immune triggers.

GratefulDawg

The Preventic Collar I have discontinued for both dogs.  I don't think I can discontinue the Interceptor or the FrontLinePlus -

Of those three, the Preventic Collar is definitely the most toxic -- that's amitraz which is a majorly powerful poison (same thing I used to us as "Mitaban" to dip Muffin the Intrepid with -- to kill demodex mites).  The dog, of course, doesn't lick a tick collar, but if they use their paw to scratch, get some of the chemical on a paw and then lick the paw that's a risk. 

ANY chemical ... ANY herb ... ANY thing can, under some unknown circumstances be a trigger.  None of us have crystal balls -- we can't know for sure ... we can only be as careful as possible.

Gratefuldawg makes good points -- yeah, a dog contracting heartworm, a dog contracting tick disease, a dog who gets another parasite or disease from fleas -- THOSE things are all potential stressors that could trigger more auto-immune.  We just have to do our best is all. 

Lori -- you might think about asking your vet if it would be wise to find out if Willow's body has ALREADY manufactured antibodies to whatever tick disease is prevalent in your area.  It would be a hefy tick panel, but it might allow you to rule out a particular chemical you don't want to us.  If the tick panel Billy had showed he had formed antibodies to ehrlichea, then I'd think they could find out if Willow had.   Might not be commonly done, but it might help you breathe easier.

 Just checking in for an update on Cyclops; I hope her count is holding steady.

I was thinking about all these dogs today too.  Sending good vibes.

They are in Arkansas so I hope they aren't without power.  I haven't heard from Mike all week -- we were going to try to speak Tuesday and the storm happened.

calliecritturs

They are in Arkansas so I hope they aren't without power.  I haven't heard from Mike all week -- we were going to try to speak Tuesday and the storm happened.

  Thanks Callie; that would explain why he hasn't been on here lately; I hope Cyclops is doing okay.

Me too -- I may try the phone this weekend -- I just don't want to dump MORE on them.

If you do talk to them let them know that Willow and I are sending our get well wishes to Cyclops. 

 Hey Guys!

Yep we have been in the middle of a disaster area since the storm hit.  Very thick ice formed on power lines and trees and we were very lucky.  150,000 people were without power at one point.  Some people had trees crash through their houses and on top of cars.  We were very fortunate.  

 Cyclops enjoyed it all.  She gets very "puppyish" whenever she sees snow.  She likes to stick her nose in the snow and flip some up in the air and if I shovel the driveway she likes to chase the shovel and bark. 

Cyclops' last CBC was 24.  only up from 23.7, statistically about the same.  If you exclude the one CBC from the foreign machine her CBC's have been 22-25 for the last month.  I called OSU.  I told them that 2 weeks ago we decided to keep her on the pred (she had ordered us to taper it off and discontinue but we decided to keep it where it was because of the PCV not moving). 

We are going to increase her Cyclosporine from 150mg 2x/day to 200mg 2x/day.  I guess the reasoning is that we know where she is at now is holding her steady.  Her body is still killing cells like mad but she is also creating baby cells too.  The immune system isn't knocked down enough yet and she feels Cyclops doesn't respond to the Pred.  So we're going to see what happens.  

 Overall though things are going steady.  No scares and no panic attacks.  I think she's getting used to the medicine.  She wants to go on walks so we take very short ones at her pace.  I've noticed that the more she moves the better she is getting around.  Maybe all this laying around with little or no movement contributed to the weakness she had earlier.  

Oh, another thing.. her heart murmur is 100% gone.  No sign of it whatsoever.  Doctor said that when her blood was so thin at 9% it was just leaking past those heart valves and now its resolved itself. 

On Feb 5 it will be a month since we brought her home from the teaching hospital.  And of course its been past a month since Christmas Eve when I didn't think she'd live to see the New Year (or a new day for that matter).  Just little moments like seeing her happy in the snow make it all worth it and make you really appreciate life.  

Glad you guys are OK!  No scares and no panics are a good thing, glad Cloppy is holding her own.  Hope things continue to remain stable for her. 

GratefulDawg

Just little moments like seeing her happy in the snow make it all worth it and make you really appreciate life.  

Yes, it makes it all worth it! :)