Dual-sired litter?

rwbeagles

so again I just want to be clear here...you actually are saying that a breeding of dual sires...is like the one you saw in the street?

You are saying that people who do dual sires...are not thinking of their bitch?

I just want to be clear Bonita because really...that's a heck of a thing to say about people you do not know, and a subject you seem to have limited knowledge about. Just being honest about what I get from your posts on it...

I don't mind that you have that opinion...I am just wanting to be 100% clear.

From the tone of your question apparently you do mind my having that opinion.  First I did not say what nearly happened to the stray in the street is the same as a Dual Sire Breeding I said it is a NATURAL happening.  An unguarded bitch in season is at nature's mercy. Who and how many , it is still on the base level a natural function.

Dual Sires  in my honest opinion are not chosen because there is only one girl in the world and two boys and with out them the breed as we know it will end. There are a lot of reasons and I have discussed them with several breeders who have literally over half a century  each in my breed, they are not simply world class breeders but world recognized judges as well. The topic came up  years ago when another person asked if I would stand my boy to stud the natural cover to an AI before the DNA was as affordable and as available.  I had already answered no thank you as I limit the amount of puppies I am willing to put in the world.  But I was curious and asked my mentors why would anyone want to use dual sires?   They were as always very patient , played devils advocate and it was a great thread for weeks in our forums and privately.  While each had said they had either had at least one dual sire litter or had given it serious thought they  found little to recommend it.

It does not raise the reputation of a stud, it does not limit the probable puppies, it often involves a trip to the vet to allow for an AI procedure which exposes an already "open" bitch to hoards of bacteria and issues that an uncomplicated breeding would not. In the case of a bitch with two studs having natural covers, they stressed it should only be an experienced bitch, easy breeder and hopefully easy whelper.  This was never advice as a recommendation  for other breeders it was the consensus of an enormous amount of skilled and educated breeders.

 IT is a method to allow the use of two studs in one whelp, minimizing the number of litters a breeder may have to deal with . She still must handle the mating or insemination's and must carry what may well be an overly large litter as the amount of viable sperm is vastly increased in this choice of breeding.  When was the last time  you went to a dog show and heard  this dog is out of ( insert the dam's name)?? It is rare since bitches have a limited number of healthy breeding's possible while a male can breed all day all night be collected and bred on both sides of the country and even years after he is dead.  

As for having a limited knowledge hmmm, that is a tougher one.  As a Retired Nurse I tend to get a good bit from all of the seminars I attend every year. Normally about 8-14 each year.  I am also very active in the Health and Genetics of our breed. I have yet to lose a puppy to a dam rolling on it or failing to thrive, My litters are small by my choice as my waiting list is considerable. I whelp for Rescue and our local shelter. And I am on speed dial with our friends when they have a litter due. I found having a huge number of litters does not an expert make,However years in the breed of choice, ( nearly 30 for me) , mentors who answer every silly or serious question you have ever asked and making sure you do go to seminars at the Nationals, at Supported Entries to allow you every opportunity to understand what testing is new, what is coming up, what meds, equipment and training will all benefit your breed.Discussing what your breed needs and what it does not need and when push comes to shove  retiring a promising show dog because a test was simply mediocre - not high enough for your programs requirements. That speaks of both education and commitment. But if you feel better saying I am "limited "  feel free. 

Frankly I am done with the thread, I would not have responded but had left the auto notifier on and when my daughter used my email she saw yours and was offended on my behalf.  I assured her it was nothing of any importance a simple disagreement in beliefs.  As I said I do not have an objection to AI or Frozen, I understand and have even dreamed of using a gorgeous Hawaiian stud some day but frankly I don't see myself flying him to Alabama or my girl to Hawaii so we would have to go another option should I pursue that dream. Dual Sires may have some validity in your program and that is entirely your decision   Now are we 100% Clear???? 

I am out of this thread and would appreciate dropping the use of my posts that seem to be snipped for qoutes in a manner not reflecting the specific thought.  

Bonita of Bwana

Bonita of Bwana

lled and educated breeders.

 IT is a method to allow the use of two studs in one whelp, minimizing the number of litters a breeder may have to deal with . She still must handle the mating or insemination's and must carry what may well be an overly large litter as the amount of viable sperm is vastly increased in this choice of breeding.  When was the last time  you went to a dog show and heard  this dog is out of ( insert the dam's name)?? It is rare since bitches have a limited number of healthy breeding's possible while a male can breed all day all night be collected and bred on both sides of the country and even years after he is dead.  

I don't know, I hear it all the time. Maybe it varies by breed? (The boy that I bred Rittie to is out of one of the most winning smoothie girls in our breed who has been in the top 10 for years- she's retired as of this fall and is 10- she STILL loves to show.)

I don't understand how more viable sperm can result in more puppies, though, since a bitch only releases a pre-determined number of eggs?      

Pwca

I don't know, I hear it all the time. Maybe it varies by breed? (The boy that I bred Rittie to is out of one of the most winning smoothie girls in our breed who has been in the top 10 for years- she's retired as of this fall and is 10- she STILL loves to show.)

I don't understand how more viable sperm can result in more puppies, though, since a bitch only releases a pre-determined number of eggs?      

 I don't think that a dual sire breeding is really any different than breeding a bitch to the same male multiple times. Most people breed their bitch at least twice. There is no reason to think that such a thing will result in larger litters or anything else. The downside of the multiple sire litter actually is that you'll be getting a normal sized litter (say 6-8 puppies) with a normal ratio of pet to show puppies but still having to pay two stud fees. You may not get a show quality puppy from both sires, so it is a bit of a gamble.

Here's why I don't understand doing an intentional dual sired litter.

For me to consider breeding to an older male with a low sperm count, or to do a breeding with frozen sperm or chilled semen, it would have to be a breeding that I really REALLY wanted to do. A breeding that was important to me.

Then why would I want to take the chance that some of the eggs that might have been fertilized by the sperm of that dog, would instead be fertilized by the "back up dog?" The second dog would have more sperm, more vigorous swimmers.

If you are willing to put sperm from the first dog in competition with sperm from the second dog, then how bad do you really want puppies from the first dog? If you are willing to do that, then in my opinion you aren't terribly committed to the first dog, so why even bother? Just go with the second dog with the vigorous swimmers.

I am hoping to do a breeding to a deceased sire, and I would never even consider letting any other sperm within 100 yards of my girl. I would not want to risk that even one egg that could have been fertilized by the frozen sperm, would instead by fertilized first by another dog.

So I still think that people who are doing dual sired litters just can't make up their minds.

samshine

Here's why I don't understand doing an intentional dual sired litter.

For me to consider breeding to an older male with a low sperm count, or to do a breeding with frozen sperm or chilled semen, it would have to be a breeding that I really REALLY wanted to do. A breeding that was important to me.

Then why would I want to take the chance that some of the eggs that might have been fertilized by the sperm of that dog, would instead be fertilized by the "back up dog?" The second dog would have more sperm, more vigorous swimmers.

  Using frozen isn't always the reason for a dual sired litter. If a bitch is older, a breeder may go for a dual sired litter if there are two males they are considering. Or if for some reason they only want to breed their bitch once (less puppies to place or maybe due to other "stuff" going on in their life) but like two males. There are valid reasons for it, even if you don't personally see yourself doing such a breeding.

samshine

So I still think that people who are doing dual sired litters just can't make up their minds.

I know "good breeders" that DO...and have "done" and none of them was due to not being able to make their minds up.

I understand your opinion is your own...but I see personally no need to use such a broad brush.

I think there are a number of good reasons for a dual sired litter.  As someone who has a bitch heading into her last litter I see two males that would be good choices for different reasons and have a lot in common too.  I've been mulling it over for about a year now and the clock is ticking down on me as she'll be going into season in a couple months.  I would have the opportunity to do naturals on both and I really see the 'process' as no different than asking her to stand for multiple naturals on the same dog.  She's a proven solid brood bitch who will stand without protest so I'm not too worried about that. 

 My mentor did a dual sire litter.  She bred to an older virgin male who didn't have the best motility in all the world but she really wanted to use him because the right bitch came along.  They had no choice really but to do a natural which he was still healthy for.  The bitch was 3 and this was her first litter.  She really wanted a litter so she backed up the old man with her 'fertile myrtle' to do her best to make sure she had pups. This is someone maintaining a sled team and for those of us doing that, timing of new dogs is important.  The breeding to the old man is the one that took.   In a breed where variety is dwindling quickly she was able to utilize a nice old dog no one else had. 
 

I do believe this method could be misused--like in the case of 2 males in the house, which one got her?  But I think the AKC has made it a little pricier to try and discourage that kind of thing.   

I had pups this summer out of a dog I have long admired but has been dead for years now--the things we can do.