Dual-sired litter?

Maybe I have girls who are less than happy breeders. But it is common in the RR would to have to muzzle the bitch to keep her from eating the Male's face.  I have also know bitches who soured on the vet after having and AI.

I guess I'm not so impressed with that reasoning.  Muzzling a bitch for breeding does not offend me any more than hobbling a mare for breeding does - if you have a good enough sire for your pups, it's a good idea to protect him.  However, what's common in RR's is not necessarily common in other breeds.  On a lighter note, if your bitches are that inclined to eat their mates, perhaps they should be going to lion-hunting homes LOL.  I think that if a breeder is doing this sort of thing responsibly, then a modicum of attention is certainly paid to the relative size of bitch and sires, and to the general health and age of the bitch.  I don't think that I would do this myself, but I can understand how a breeder might do so (rarely, one would hope) if the circumstances seem to warrant it.  Sometimes, you just can't get the bitch to the sire you want, and in those breeds where the gene pool really does need some expanding, I have no objection to AI.  You can always use a highly qualified vet other than your regular vet to minimize the chance that the bitch will sour on the vet you want to use for most procedures and for regular care.  JMHO, and with the caveat that I don't think this should be done willy-nilly, but in certain circumstances where there might be a legitimate reason.

 I would also like to point out that sometimes, bets need to be hedged to save a breed.  If you have a very limited number of bitches in a given country and only a portion of those are even of breeding age, you do what you can to repopulate the breed in the area.  Sometimes that means putting 2 studs with a bitch because it's not just a matter of a "wasted season" if the breeding doesn't take - it's 1 less chance you have to rebuild the numbers of a rare breed.

Those are the circumstances in which I have heard of this being done.  Not "my" rare breed, as it happens, but a similar situation here in another breed.  FWIW, all the breedings were done live, not AI.

Bonita...dual sired does not mean a vet procedure necessarily, and neither does AI...if you mean a intra uterine AI that is a surgical procedure...there are people who do dual sired with two live dogs and fresh semen which is hardly a surgical procedure.

I get that you aren't with it, but I have to point out that you have no idea what I am wrapping it up with, or why, or on what basis.

I have done an AI on my bitch, myself at home...many people are capable of it BY THEMSELVES with no vet...so what exactly is it you are upset about?  My bitch was AI'd and has no issue with me, or males, or breeding...LOL...she hasn't been soured on anything. Plenty of dogs do not like the vet for reasons not including AI procedures....plenty of spayed and neutered dogs, do not like the vet LOL.

I think some allowances for other people out there actually having a clue and some knowledge about breeding dogs should is okay, AI'ing a bitch is not always anything high tech or pushing a breed to Bulldog extremes.

Bonita of Bwana

A dual Sired breeding is likely to produce puppies of different sizes and a larger litter.

Are you using two different BREEDS or what? Most dogs of a breed have similar size ranges, male and female. My breed has two size varities that are interbred freely...and puppies of the same size and different are born ALL THE TIME...the smallest can end up 15" and vice versa. For that matter in many breeds the bitch is quite a bit smaller than the dog...and so there are already two dogs of different sizes involved...isn't there?

Puppies of different sizes can occur with single sire litters...and how many sires has NOTHING to do with how many eggs the bitch releases that are there to be fertilized...I am pretty sure her body controls that.

The dual sired litter of Akitas I know of had FOUR puppies....hardly a larger litter...rather a small one for the breed...because that bitch was known for small litters and did not release many eggs at a time evidently. The number of sires had no effect on the eggs numbers...and certainly did not affect at all her familiar tendency to have small litters.

BTW, If it makes anyone feel better...most studs who are collected for AI...LOVE...their vets...LOVE them lots. LOL.

Bonita of Bwana

But it is common in the RR would to have to muzzle the bitch to keep her from eating the Male's face.

I am sorry, Bonita.  I respect your views but you have said a couple of times that "if the breeding doesn't take it wasn't meant to" or words to that effect.  I am unable to see how a bitch that will stand for two males is any less natural than a bitch that won't stand for a male without being muzzled.  

I may not have been clear,  I do not have an issue with muzzle'ing a bitch for a breeding. I believe wholeheartedly that a breeder must be careful and take precautions to make sure the breeding is both successful and without damage to anyone.  An AI is a procedure that may be needed for a number of reasons. But to say a dual sire litter is somehow a manner of sparing the bitch from problems is silly.  It is a shortcut and attempt to make sure at least one of the breedings take.  While my girls are muzzled at the start of the breeding most settle into the "adventure" quickly and the muzzle may then be removed.  MY first three litters from my foundation pair never required a muzzle at all, they adored each other and it was the most natural and loving thing for them to have babies..... Mtzee hated the dog who was her first, yet was very affectionate with the father of her second litter.... 

Bonita of Bwana

Benedict

I am sorry, Bonita.  I respect your views but you have said a couple of times that "if the breeding doesn't take it wasn't meant to" or words to that effect.  I am unable to see how a bitch that will stand for two males is any less natural than a bitch that won't stand for a male without being muzzled.  

Girls are often brought in for a breeding before the hormones are screaming "I am READY"  Very often the hormones don't begin that urgent noise in their heads until they are well on their way OUT of season.Some breeders have a "lucky" day they begin matings on, others use progeteron testing to get a better idea of when. Maiden Bitches rarely understand or appreciate the concept of a strange male being allow the liberties he is more than happy to take. So a breeding which is begun muzzled is most often finished without one, as the girl relaxes and understands what is going on . With one girl  I felt it was not a good idea to ever remove her muzzle, she simply did not care for him, he was an experienced highy thought of stud but lazy putting a great deal of his weight on her. Had we not driven all the way to Chicago for the breeding I would have cancelled the arrangement altogether. I certainly would never have thought , hmmm let's bring several boys out and see if she likes any of them ?....  The next time we wanted to breed her I worried that she was not going to stand for this boy either. It was understood that if she did not want to tolerate the breeding it would be cancelled.  We had only driven from Alabama to Tennessee so that was about 800 miles one way.  That owner and breeder was more like myself and encouraged them to play a bit , become friendly and happy about the mating. She was muzzled for less than a minute, it was quickly obvious she felt he was both fun and worthy.  The muzzle came off and she was a happy girl.  We took her to him Twice.  Both times we had 3 ties that lasted longer than 20 minutes each. The first time no puppies.  The second time we decided as it was the last year she would be eligible in our program , my husband wanted to try one more time. We had a really lovely litter.

Having a stud dog I would not want to place a girl in with him and "hope" She was a happy camper. The damage done in a matter of moments can be devastating.  Friends with a lovely stud allowed him to be used by another friend. The handlers were supposed to supervise the breeding while everyone was at a meeting. The dogs tied and the handlers stepped out for a smoke, when they returned the dogs were screaming all heck was breaking loose . The bitch had pullled away from the male while still connected and tore him open. He had over 300 stitches to put him back together and obviously his stud days were over.  ( No puppies from that disaster either) . He nearly died, not just  lost his show careeer and the puppies people had wnated out of him.

Where does it stop?  mulitple studs,  standing stud and an IA back up,  dogs who can no longer even try a breeding normally because we have genetically altered them so much they are incapable of the act of procreation without risking heart atttack ??  Just because we can does not mean we should.

In our breeding program we allow 3 ties.  They are always supervised, no toss the dogs in the garage , or back yard and let nature take it's course thinking. Allowing mulitple males to get to a bitch is a personal choice. I find it repugnant.  It is fine to think I am anthropomorphizing the  thought. But in all honesty I just can not wrap my head around how this in anyway is for her advantage or safety ?

Bonita of Bwana

Bonita of Bwana

But to say a dual sire litter is somehow a manner of sparing the bitch from problems is silly.

To you...to someone else, in some other situation...it may not be. You personally may not be open to such circumstances existing in the world...but that doesn't mean the circumstances do not exist...nor that the people who act differently...wrong. Or as you so kindly put it..."silly".

Bonita of Bwana

I may not have been clear,  I do not have an issue with muzzle'ing a bitch for a breeding

I think what people are noting strange is that you do not have a problem or consider it unnatural to muzzle a bitch for breeding but you consider a procedure like dual sires...UNnatural when it actually is MORE a natural scenario...LOL. Unwilling bitches exist in just about every breed...that we chose their mates and the days they will be bred is unnatural all by itself so I think trying to make that a counter point for the "unnatural" act of a bitch tying to two different males a bit shaky.

I think that's all that was meant...I don't think anyone here was confused on your feelings about muzzling.

 They are always supervised, no toss the dogs in the garage , or back yard and let nature take it's course thinking. Allowing mulitple males to get to a bitch is a personal choice. I find it repugnant.  It is fine to think I am anthropomorphizing the  thought. But in all honesty I just can not wrap my head around how this in anyway is for her advantage or safet

Bonita...so you are thinking that people who use 2 sires are "throwing them into a garage" for some sort of communal type breeding marathon, that is somehow different than a one sire breeding? How fair are you actually being with that line of thought?

rwbeagles

I think what people are noting strange is that you do not have a problem or consider it unnatural to muzzle a bitch for breeding but you consider a procedure like dual sires...UNnatural when it actually is MORE a natural scenario...LOL. Unwilling bitches exist in just about every breed...that we chose their mates and the days they will be bred is unnatural all by itself so I think trying to make that a counter point for the "unnatural" act of a bitch tying to two different males a bit shaky.

I think that's all that was meant...I don't think anyone here was confused on your feelings about muzzling.

Thank you Gina, that is exactly right.  

For the record, I see the advantages and occasional necessity of muzzling a bitch and would not question anyone doing so if they thought it was safest for all involved.  I was merely pointing out that that, too, is "unnatural".  Indeed, as Gina touched on, almost nothing about the way dogs are bred in this day and age is "natural" unless there are breeders out there who leave all their dogs in a big enclosed area, prayed for the best that puppies emerged and no dogs died as a result of fighting, and did not interfere AT all from pre-conception through the weaning process.  And if such a person were to come onto this forum and describe their method of breeding, I doubt they'd be made to feel particularly welcome. 

I have no problem whatsoever with dual-siring.  If it could save a vulnerable breed, or even preserve a bloodline about to be lost I think it's a good idea. 

Bonita of Bwana

Where does it stop?  mulitple studs,  standing stud and an IA back up,  dogs who can no longer even try a breeding normally because we have genetically altered them so much they are incapable of the act of procreation without risking heart atttack ??  Just because we can does not mean we should.

Actually it's already gone farther than that.  Some dogs are sired by studs that are already dead.

rwbeagles

Bonita of Bwana

But to say a dual sire litter is somehow a manner of sparing the bitch from problems is silly.

To you...to someone else, in some other situation...it may not be. You personally may not be open to such circumstances existing in the world...but that doesn't mean the circumstances do not exist...nor that the people who act differently...wrong. Or as you so kindly put it..."silly".

Bonita of Bwana

I may not have been clear,  I do not have an issue with muzzle'ing a bitch for a breeding

I think what people are noting strange is that you do not have a problem or consider it unnatural to muzzle a bitch for breeding but you consider a procedure like dual sires...UNnatural when it actually is MORE a natural scenario...LOL. Unwilling bitches exist in just about every breed...that we chose their mates and the days they will be bred is unnatural all by itself so I think trying to make that a counter point for the "unnatural" act of a bitch tying to two different males a bit shaky.

I think that's all that was meant...I don't think anyone here was confused on your feelings about muzzling.

I'm glad I read the whole thread before posting, Gina, well said. That's exactly what I was thinking.

And Kate and Liesje also made wonderful points.  I am actually considering a pup born from a litter of a stud from a past generation.... I'm very excited about that and thrilled that I have the opportunity to maybe own one of his pups even though he passed 2 yrs ago.  Technology has both pros and cons... just like everything else in the world.

jennie_c_d

 Crazy.

 

Everybody I know mostly just breeds... dogs to dogs, LOL. I don't think I know anybody that actually does AIs. At least, I don't hear about it if I do. 

Ari was the result of AI :)  The stud was too far away to make a "natural" breeding possible.  

Since I still have a house full of company and really will not have time to continue on the topic fully let me offer the final thoughts as I bow out of the thread.

The topic was DUAL SIRE not AI not Frozen and Not using a muzzle as part of the breeding process to minimize possible damage when bringing two animals together who do not routinally play and flirt, who do not know each other well. To assert a muzzle is a less than natural part of a breeding and to then clip my post to imply I believe it is is , well wrong. 

I have seen a bitch surrounded and having to fight to avoid being mated by strays. That was a natural act , our interference and driving the others away from her was not .  btw she was also a stray, not one of my expensive and highly valued girls,  she simply did not deserve what was about to be dealt to her. 

I explained that humans often have a schedule for breedings they would prefer to use that may not jive with the level of hormonal interest of the girl. If the male is not interested it is a no brainer, some assistance from a qualified vet and an AI is a possibility. If the girl is not ready , or maybe a frightened maiden then a fight is a very real possibility.  With hormones in play why take the chance that a mating can turn into a nightmare?  The moment she indicates she is okay, the fright is gone and she is able to deal with the mating the muzzle is off.  I am still there with her, making sure she is okay,  offering comfort and encouragement.

I have no problem with AIs. I have no problem with frozen semen, I do not disparage or disagree with the manipulation of breeding lines and what we are all hoping to bring to the future of our breeds. While I do not breed that way, I have not had to.  I do not have a problem with anyone who does.  Careful planing creates great lines. 

What I do have an issue with is the concept that a dual sire litter is taking the bitch's best interest at heart.  IMHO a DS is simply using her to maximize a season, in case the gamble with the AI doesn't work or the frozen does not produce then the breeder has the live cover to fall back on financially. This is not done in every breeding because we are concerned with the girl having a false pregnancy, or because we want her to be "happy" .... If it were we would ignore the cost of the additional vetting and do it every single time we bred.  It is only done at our convinence and when it suits us.

Since the thread vered off topic because I did not agree with everyone's POV,  I will bow out,  I will say as I do so that I breed with GREAT care, and RARELY. I do so to ensure I am bringing something to the breed and that EVERY puppy can come back to me for life.  I do not have a couple of litters a year, I do not bank a tidy sum from having my litters and I never insist the owners put a show career before the love I pray they will give my pups.  So I guess for me it is about minimizing the proceadures and keeping my girls as safe as humanely possible. Less anesthesia, less gamble and total hands on to assure the male can not become overly aggressive either.

Bonita of Bwana

so again I just want to be clear here...you actually are saying that a breeding of dual sires...is like the one you saw in the street?

You are saying that people who do dual sires...are not thinking of their bitch?

I just want to be clear Bonita because really...that's a heck of a thing to say about people you do not know, and a subject you seem to have limited knowledge about. Just being honest about what I get from your posts on it...

I don't mind that you have that opinion...I am just wanting to be 100% clear.