Why do people get judged when asking a breeding question????

glenmar

 

And we are still majorly off topic. This is the ugliest thread I've seen in a good long time.

The OP has weighed in and said she's fine with and wants to hear the opinions and asked the mod that it be allowed to continue.  I don't know how a heated discussion about breeding is off topic from a thread that asked why people get judged when asking about breeding questions. 

Mechanical Angel

Yes, I understand its terrible that some people breed purely for money but this doesnt mean that everybody that breeds there dog is doing that. I think it's terrible how under a dog section here that you can't ask a breeding question without half the people answering thinking your a bad person. I DO agree that there are thousands of dogs out there in shelters that all need loving homes but if everybody went and got a shelter dog and no one ever bred another dog again then that would be the end to dogs in 20 yrs time and whose to say that the person asking a question here wouldnt make sure all there puppies go to loving permanent homes?

I think that everyone should be able to ask a question about breeding or new born puppies on here without being judged.

I'd like to hear other people's views on this as I know this won't go down well with everyone as we all have our own opinions.

Ok, I've been reading through the pages and pages on this thread; many interesting posts. I tried to stay out of this thread because it's a very hot topic that can quickly get heated because we all do have our own POV (and that's great). So, I'm only going to post to the original post.

I believe in responsible, ethical breeding. I believe in breeding health tested, tempermant tested, working, show, even pet-quality dogs. Do I think everyone who has a dog has the right to breed that dog just because they can? No. I believe that breeding is a privalege that only responsible, ethical, educated, individuals should be allowed. People who choose to breed also need the funds to cover health tests, medical routine vet visits, and medical emergencies, and understand that these costs won't be salvageable through the sale of the puppies.

Good breeders also have a contract stating that they will take the dog back, at anytime, no matter what, because they would never want their pride and joy to be dumped off at a shelter. Many of these good breeders demand updates on their puppies and offer free advice throughout the life of the puppy.

I think if you ask a breeding question on a public, open, forum, dedicated to dogs, and you come off as an irresponsible BYB you're going to get some nasty responses. Many of us on this forum have rescued and rehabilitated dogs....unfortunately, many of us have seen good dogs euthanized due to BYB's, "oops litters", unwanted pets, irresponsible owners allowing their unaltered dogs to roam and breed with strays, etc, etc. And many of us have owned or seen or heard about pets who have debilitating genetic diseases.  And many have seen young dogs suffering needlessly- sometimes resulting in euthanizing- due to the "breeders" lack of testing.

We're real people here sitting behind this computer screen. We have emotions and feelings. We all feel strongly for dogs- or else we wouldn't be here. To read some kid posting about breeding their dog because it's cute, or because the male is "sex crazed", really unnerves some. Some of us respond with our hearts and feelings....you might think we're cruel, but we think you're cruel for not doing your own dogs justice by completing the health tests (at least). We don't want your female to die during labor, we don't want the pups to be genetically deformed. So, if we respond with emotion it's because we care.

BCMixs

glenmar

And we are still majorly off topic. This is the ugliest thread I've seen in a good long time.

The OP has weighed in and said she's fine with and wants to hear the opinions and asked the mod that it be allowed to continue.  I don't know how a heated discussion about breeding is off topic from a thread that asked why people get judged when asking about breeding questions. 

I agree with you BCMixs.  I don't consider this ugly or heated for that matter.  I do think this forum has to work out how it responds to members thinking about breeding their family pet.  They currently respond with scare tactics, intimidations, and the false information, and that needs to change. 

DPU

That is your choice and only a choice that you can make given your observation of the dog's health.  No one can tell you what to do.  I have lived with a HD dog and I have placed a HD dog.  Me, personally I would not breed.  Drizzle I should have bred.

While no one can tell the OP what to do, it appears that many are giving very responsible, reasonable advice on all of the things that should be considered before breeding.  Well, except one member...

 DPU, why not breed Drizzle now?  I understand that she is older, but you seem to like to take risks, so why not risk her life in an attempt to have a litter?

Ohhh, I'll bet it's because, although you love to play devil's advocate, you are much too responsible to take such a risk...

DPU

I do think this forum has to work out how it responds to members thinking about breeding their family pet.  They currently respond with scare tactics, intimidations, and the false information, and that needs to change. 

Worse case scenarios are not scare tactics or intimidations, IMO.  If you known the bad things that can happen, then you can work on preventing them or on coping with them if they do happen.  If you can't cope with complications (emotionally and financially), then you probably shouldn't breed.  Coping, of course, can mean knowing when to get the dam to the vet.

Anyone who breeds their female needs to know that they can potentially lose their dog and the pups.  That is just a fact of life and the less the breeder knows about whelping the higher that risk will be when dealing with complications.  Yeh, lots of births go just fine without aid, but vets can tell you that they see plenty of problems, too. 

Any false information on this forum needs to be corrected and was in this thread.  That way we all learn.  I sure did!

P.S.  I do not deliberately give false information!! 

janet_rose

Worse case scenarios are not scare tactics or intimidations, IMO.  If you known the bad things that can happen, then you can work on preventing them or on coping with them if they do happen.  If you can't cope with complications (emotionally and financially), then you probably shouldn't breed.  Coping, of course, can mean knowing when to get the dam to the vet.

P.S.  I do not deliberately give false information!! 

Then why not also provide the probabilities of the bad things happening.  I am sure you know the accurate numbers.  Let the dog owner make a choice that includes assessing the risk factors.

Also, that was a big mistake and from the poster who corrected you, she says she keeps having to correct and feels no one reads her post.  Whats that?

BEVOLASVEGAS

DPU, why not breed Drizzle now?  I understand that she is older, but you seem to like to take risks, so why not risk her life in an attempt to have a litter?

I know you don't know any better and if you did, you would agree that your statement is in the worst possible taste. 

This forum really needs to work out how it will address this issue and how members interested in breeding are treated.

DPU

Then why not also provide the probabilities of the bad things happening.  I am sure you know the accurate numbers.  Let the dog owner make a choice that includes assessing the risk factors.

You are incorrect.  I do not know the numbers.  Can you supply them?

DPU

Also, that was a big mistake and from the poster who corrected you, she says she keeps having to correct and feels no one reads her post.  Whats that? 

This was the first time that I had read a post by her with the information.  A search on

                    samshine AND (ovulate OR ovulation)

produces only two posts - both in 2008 threads that I did not read or participate in.  One of those posts was in January when I was dealing with my father's illness and not reading the forum at all.

Liesje

Mechanical Angel

I might be looking to breed Possum in like 4 years. Its just a thought. Im not sure yet though. Just looking for info and what people think.

 

If you are serious about doing it right, then the best thing you can do is find a reputable breeder who has been showing and trialing the breed for decades, get yourself a mentor.  They can answer all of your questions as they relate to the dog's particular breed.  Another good idea would be co-owning, again with a breeder/mentor.

Much agreed.  A good mentor would be invaluable.

samshine

Mechanical Angel

Possum is breeding quality. She is a blond chi and she has a GREAT!! personality. She is the sweetest thing I have ever met. I am thinking about  a black and tan chi who is 1 yr old right now and is my friends dog. He can be a bit agressive but only in play with other dogs. He LOVES!! humans. I will probably breed in 3 years.

Well, you better start learning now! I wish I knew more about Chis to offer you advice. One problem that I do know about is luxating patellas. This is where their knee cap slips out of place. When she is older she needs to be tested for the degree of slippage in her knee cap. The male too. To learn more you can google luxating patellas and also go to www.offa.org

I know that Chis can have a problem with open fontenells (spelling? I have no idea) where certain portions of their skull does not close up, leaving their brain open to injury. You need to do some research on the and the genetics involved.

You really need to learn from someone with years of experience in the breed.

Checking the knees on both dogs is super important.  Luxating patellas are very common in small breeds, and I can personally tell you they are not fun to deal with.  Depending upon their grade of severity, they may very well require surgery at some point.

Just an FYI.  :-)  The open part of their skull is called a Molera.  It is not a "problem" per say,  but rather a breed trait.  Some Chis have them, some don't.  But if they do, it *does* require a bit of extra precaution.

Mechanical Angel

Possum is breeding quality. She is a blond chi and she has a GREAT!! personality. She is the sweetest thing I have ever met. I am thinking about  a black and tan chi who is 1 yr old right now and is my friends dog. He can be a bit agressive but only in play with other dogs. He LOVES!! humans. I will probably breed in 3 years.

MA, how old is Possum right now?  I know she is young at least...much too young to know whether she will be breeding quality.  You cannot discern whether Chi pup is SHOW quality before 4 months of age.  And even then, some SHOW quality Chis should still not be bred.  I am sure Possum is cute as heck , and I know the idea of raising a litter of puppies can sound wonderful and exciting, but I do hope you at least consider all of the points that everyone has already made in this thread before making any decisions.  Some of us may be very passionate in our responses, but it is ONLY because we truly care about the welfare of dogs.  I love the Chihuahua breed.  I really do, and it disheartens me to see what is happening to the breed these days thanks to unselective and arbitrary breeding.

Anwyay, regarding some of your previous statements.  You said the possible stud has shown some aggresion towards other dogs.  I know others have mentioned it, but please realize that temperment IS affected by genetics.  Maybe not totally, but genetics DO play a role.  Honestly, IMO, a dog  with a poor temperment should NEVER be purposely bred.  I just don't see the reason for it, because by doing so you are knowingly increasing the odds that undesirable traits will be passed on to the puppies.  Yes, a person can do their best to train it out of the dog later as some have mentioned...but isn't it easier to try to avoid the problem in the first place by breeding carefully from dogs of good dispositions in order to give the puppies the best start possible?  JMO.

Also, I am sure you know this, but some genetic health problems may take years to show up.  So, again, you cannot yet determine whether or not your puppy is breeding quality, because there are so many things that may still pop up.  If you do not know much or anything about the lines your puppy came from -- and I am only *assuming* you probably do not since she is coming from your neighbors..but correct me if I am wrong ;) -- then you are taking a risk in not knowing what health problems may run in those lines.  And of course, all of that goes for the stud, as well.

For those who think that a birth is no big deal...we are talking about Chihuahuas.  It is not uncommon for Chihuahuas to have problems with delivery.  And I am NOT trying to use a scare tactic -- it is simply a fact.  Chihuahuas tend to have small litters.  Chihuahua puppies also have big heads.  And the mothers, assuming they adhere to the standard, are small.  It is *entirely* possible that a cesarean may be required.  You will need to be prepared to get the mother to the vet if necessary, and fast.

Anyway, MA, I am glad that you are thinking ahead and doing your research now, with plenty of time to prepare.    I hope you continue to stick around the board.  In the meantime...is there any chance you might post some puppy pictures?  I could use a fix.  :-)

Mechanical Angel

Possum is breeding quality.

You don't know that at her age.  Even breeders who have been doing it for 20 odd years can't tell at that age.   You need to do more research.  3 years of research sounds about right

 MA- Since I'm an eternal optimist and hope that you've learned from this thread and will continue to try to learn more, I thought I'd provide some chihuahua specific information from actual chihuahua breeders who know more than I about the breed and issues specific to breeding them. 

http://www.marlischis.com/to_breed_or_not_to_breed.htm 

Some interesting things I noticed in this:

From the Dog Owners Guide on spaying:

"...Females are better pets if they do not experience estrus twice each year.  Heat cycles bring hormonal changes that can lead to personality changes.  Repeated heat cycles subject the reproductive system to UTERINE AND MAMMARY CANCERS and UTERINE INFECTIONS.  Some bitches experience false pregnancies that can be a bother to deal with...  "

From the Official Newsletter of the Canine Health Foundation (AKC) Fall 1999, Issue 1:

"Dogs develop more mammary tumors than any species other than mice.  The incidence in bitches, 199/100,000 female dogs, is nearly three times that seen in women...  "

"The most widely recognized risk factor for developing mammary carcinoma in the dog is the number of estrous cycles (heats) experienced prior to ovariohysterectomy (spaying). Bitches spayed before the first heat have a relative risk of 0.05% for mammary cancer, while those with one heat cycle had 8% and those with 2 or more cycles had 26% relative risk. The sparing effect of ovariohysterectomy is lost after two years or four cycles...  "

If waiting 4 years to breed Possum, that seems to greatly increase her chances of mammary tumors with 2 cycles per year.  Not to mention the personality changes during her cycle you may have to deal with.

http://www.tanyastoys.com/mychi.htm 

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/why-selective-breeding-is-important-to-a-chihuahua.html 

http://www.minifido.com/info.htm 

DPU

Come on, give some meaningful advise

I have some meaningful advice. Birth HURTS.  Golly, I wouldn't want to put any beloved pet through, just for the sake of it.  There would have to be an EXCELLENT reason for the pairing to happen.

DPU

Today her dog does not have any medical history

Of course she does.  What about her parents, grandprents, "aunts and uncles" etc?  What sort of screening have they had?

I can live with her not showing the dog.  But not knowing the lines, the faults, virtues and defects in those lines and not having a plan to improve something, or weed out something else.... That is what I think i wrong. 

DPU

Why does Mechanical have to add anything to the breed. 

Are you being serious, or just stirring?

DPU

In her eyes her dog is already perfect,

So what?  LOTS AND LOTS AND LOATS of people have dogs who are "perfect in their eyes".  Lord help us if they ALL took that notion.  She should get some other, objective eyes looking at the dog.

DPU

and I am sure she wants others to have her experience. 

Then she should rent her dog out.  Puppies are not clones of the parent.  For a start, they will inherent 50% of their genes from a dog who does NOT have a superb temperament - he is dog aggressive.  Since MANY owners of toy breeds own more than one, a DA individual is highly undesirable and liekly to end up on the scrapheap.

janet_rose

DPU

Then why not also provide the probabilities of the bad things happening.  I am sure you know the accurate numbers.  Let the dog owner make a choice that includes assessing the risk factors.

You are incorrect.  I do not know the numbers.  Can you supply them?

No I can not supply the number nor would I offer incomplete information and let the OP assume the risk are 100% probability of happening, as you did.

I did not intend to imply that the correcting poster corrected you in the past and you just ignored it.  I just attached to that statement the frustration of the correcting poster having to continuously correct the misinformation.  It makes me wonder what other advise given is just plain old misinformation (not referring to you) and that is why I said the OP should check verify everything that would concerns her.

First I want to point out that there is no convincing reason to breed your dog, and it is especially risky with toy breeds and a lot of knowledge and research is needed to do it successfully..

However...regarding some of the responses pointing out the overpopulation problems, dogs being euthanized in shelters etc...

Lets be honest here - there is a huge difference in finding a home for a purebred chi puppy than for a large mixed breed dog.  The demand for purebred, small puppies greatly outweighs the supply from shelters and responsible breeders.  When I go to the local shelter it is not loads of homeless young chihuahuas that I am seeing.  I  think we need to put that in perspective.  Sure there are many chi's on petfinder but that is because they are a popular breed but they do get adopted quickly.  In my area if you want a healthy chi from a  rescue or shelter  you will be on a long waiting list.

 That being said I think breeding your dog is stupid because the last thing the world needs is an other litter of poorly bred chis that look or act nothing like the breed standard.

jenns

Lets be honest here - there is a huge difference in finding a home for a purebred chi puppy than for a large mixed breed dog.  The demand for purebred, small puppies greatly outweighs the supply from shelters and responsible breeders.  When I go to the local shelter it is not loads of homeless young chihuahuas that I am seeing.  I  think we need to put that in perspective.  Sure there are many chi's on petfinder but that is because they are a popular breed but they do get adopted quickly.  In my area if you want a healthy chi from a  rescue or shelter  you will be on a long waiting list.

Chis in your area (New Jersey) probably do get adopted quickly, your state actually has to import dogs to fill your shelters in some areas.  In other parts of the country, like LA, there are chis in shelters NOT getting adopted because there's been a population explosion there.  In alot of cases, it's geographically dependent.

That said, I agree with the rest of your post.