Why do people get judged when asking a breeding question????

 I can't help but wonder why people are going to ask questions if they are only going to get angry when their question is answered honestly......

 And do you know how this probably makes DPU feel?? Having advice ridiculed all the time when theres no necesarry right or wrong answer is just plain a waste of time....... Dont ridicule other people in the post just tell me why you think your way is better.

 
So it is alright for DPU to ridicule other people here, calling them elitists and bigwigs and how they strong-arm people and lie, and how we are terrible people if we aren't in rescue, etc? But it's so horrible if the rest of us do it?

DPU

My question to you is what do you think is an acceptable compromise to want to breed just one time.  At one end is full blown bigwig rules and reputable breeder's process versus the willy nilly putting two dogs together and let nature take it course.  For example, arbitrarily forgo one of the health test in exchange for increased responsibility.  Remember I have no experience in breeding.

 My advice would be about the same to anyone considering breeding honestly. The health tests for most breeds are not ones which require a great deal of money and often are just a one time deal. I am not sure why someone who wanted to breed for pets wouldn't want to make sure the dogs they were breeding were clear of genetic disorders. Also there needs to be some understanding of what can be expected. The problem with breeding a dog from an unknown pedigree, to get "more just like her" is that it doesn't always work out that way, as you have no idea if she is typical of what is produced from the line or lines or not. If only it were so easy as breeding a great bitch and getting more just like her! Even someone looking to breed just one litter for pets would be well advised not to jump in unprepared. If you are selling or placing puppies you will need to learn about contracts and screening homes. You also need to learn about caring for pregnant bitches, neonatal puppies and puppy care. With toy breeds this is even more important, as whelping complications ARE more common with them, as is the loss of neonatal puppies. Ideally you could get to known littermates of your dog and your dog's parents and the same for the sire you choose, as temperament is a genetic issue.

To be honest, health testing is the cheapest part of the whole thing!

Hips - $115+ (that's what it was for Mal) plus the fee to send them in to OFA.

CERF eye exam- needs to be done annually- $20 (at the clinic at a show) or $40 at my convienence at the specialist- plus something like $15 to send the official form into CERF.

DNA tests for various diseases run from $60 (special discount done in bulk with a group from the breed list) to $150- most breeds have one or two of these at most.

Patella can be done by my regular vet and it's $25 additional to send into OFA.

Don't know how much thyroid costs to check, but I will ask next time I'm in. :)

All this is NOTHING compared to all my other expenses.  

BCMixs

I'm hoping that I will see a post where you mention SOMETHING, ANYTHING about the pedigree and history of your dog or the potential stud dog, or some health tests that have been done on either of them or their parents or grandparents or great grandparents. 

Have you seen Mechanical Angel's other thread?

http://community.dog.com/forums/t/78763.aspx?PageIndex=1

This site on the C-section states that

90% of natural deliveries progress without complications.  ...  Bulldog breeders have determined that elective c-sections are essential to the breed, their dystocia (complicated delivery) rate, however, exceeds the 10% natural average.

A 10% complication rate is higher than I would have expected.

As an individual who has purchased dogs who have been bred under the similar situations (family pet, my friends love her etc).  I have had good luck with one (she lived almost 17 years, Doberman).  And not so good luck.   The next two dobermans, had hypothyroidism.  Not exactly expensive to treat about 35.00 per month, but then there was watching them die from cardiac complications and cancer (which runs in lines, but nobody bothered to check the health of the parents, grandparents and syblings).  All three of those conditions could have been avoided to a greater extent with a well known health history on both the maternal and paternal sides.  Oh yeah, there was the elbow dysplasia in the bitch that ended her obedience career.  Then there was the 250.00 GSD who became the million dollar dog.  There was the undescended testicle (which runs in lines) the hip dysplasia (which can run in lines), and the spina bifida (who knows) and then the autoimmune disorder.  Over the course of his life I spent more than 5,000 for diagnosis and surgical treatments.  That does not count the medication and supplements he received daily.

 I loved those dogs.  The person who bred them loved their dog and the puppies.  Had these dogs lived in other household they may have had to be put down because of the financial demands of their health problems.  When I contacted the gsd breeder, she was clueless that she should stop breeding that bitch.....

 Chi's have LOTS of medical problems.  Do you really want to pass that one to someone like me who just wanted to buy a dog?  It is not just the breeder and the bitch who are at risk.

AgileGSD

DPU

My question to you is what do you think is an acceptable compromise to want to breed just one time.  At one end is full blown bigwig rules and reputable breeder's process versus the willy nilly putting two dogs together and let nature take it course.  For example, arbitrarily forgo one of the health test in exchange for increased responsibility.  Remember I have no experience in breeding.

 My advice would be about the same to anyone considering breeding honestly. The health tests for most breeds are not ones which require a great deal of money and often are just a one time deal. I am not sure why someone who wanted to breed for pets wouldn't want to make sure the dogs they were breeding were clear of genetic disorders. Also there needs to be some understanding of what can be expected. The problem with breeding a dog from an unknown pedigree, to get "more just like her" is that it doesn't always work out that way, as you have no idea if she is typical of what is produced from the line or lines or not. 

Thaniks, your answer is what I expected but definitely put in a different way.  Like your comment about health.  Maybe I did not pay attention before (not meaning your post but others) but this is the first time the health registered as no big deal to do.  Now, in my mind the health tests are checked as necessary and a must.  As a matter fact it may prove beneficial to get the test on a dog I may adopt that has unknown original, just to know.  Funny thing is my vet does not like when I ask for certain test.  Oh well. 

The thing about health test is that they are specific to a condition and some are even specific to a breed.  Even the most professional well bred dog can pass all the test and be clean, but that does not preclude other unexpected conditions from rising.  How can you test for Mega?  Do we say the line should stop because one member and only member was diagnosed with Mega.  Again, no breeding experience here and I don't know if Mega is genetic but I do have experience in giving a Mega dog good quality care and an extended life.  Same with cancer with there being so many different types and cancer research in dogs being so far behind human research.  Again, I do have experience with cancer dogs and have provided quality care that extends the dog's life.  There is always a risk no matter how diligent you are.  And if a health condition arising its how your respond to it....thats the responsibility part to give good quality care to the dog.   

I don't want to be a professional dog breeder.  I don't want to be involved in a breed club.  I don't care about all the standards.  I don't care about showing and getting competition credentials.  I know there is a list that defines a professional reputable breeder (which btw should include no rehomng dogs after they completed their breeding years).  Out of that list I am looking at examing what is necessary to make me a "reputable" given my PURPOSE for breeding.  For example, history may be unnecessary on the list because it may not be complete or even available but another item on the list offsets this.  Taking the dog from a one time litter back and giving the dog quality care in such matter that gives the dog an extended quality of life is necessary and high on the list. 

I sense that the above would still not be acceptable.  True?  I see it not be acceptable because of the disassociation with the breed club and the standards.  Some here have said breeding should only take place if you plan on showing, if you are working on eliminating an illness, if you are improving or getting closer to the breed standard.  I don't know if it is true for all, but that is the message I get from the professional breeder and there is no room for any other purpose.

Now to keep on topic, judgements don't have to be negative, there is such a thing as positive judgements that encourage responsibility and learning.  We have seen example of both in this thread and I am curious to see the type of judgement that is express based on the scenario I described above.  The why part always goes unsaid.

DPU

 

I sense that the above would still not be acceptable.  True?  I see it not be acceptable because of the disassociation with the breed club and the standards.  Some here have said breeding should only take place if you plan on showing, if you are working on eliminating an illness, if you are improving or getting closer to the breed standard. 

DPU, you are so black and white, LOL!

The above statement just dosnt pertain to you because the pride you have in your dogs would not allow you to breed with some mutt or faulty dog, LOL! Did you mean YOU realistically or hypothetically speaking in general about other people?

I hear what your saying about all the tests, having to be involved in a kennel club and whatnot but even so your reason for breeding still has the best interst in mind for the dog and the breed itself. Your not breeding to make a extra buck or because you want to make your own cool version of how you think the breed should be. I know we cant test for everything but if the tools are out thre for some things it would be a wise choice to utilize them. Especially if your a breeder charging good money for the dogs.

I think MA's choice to breed for color is a shame because its a breed that is already so overbred and exploited. So MA, how much would you charge for your pups?

AuroraLove

So MA, how much would you charge for your pups?

hmm... I like this question! Since we obviously can't get through to her that she should not be breeding this dog.... I guess we'll have to help her with the pup stuff.

What kinds of guarentees will you send with your pups? How many sets of shots (and what kind of shots) will they have? Will you provide a return policy? Will you have a health guarentee? Will you provide health screening for the mom and pups before placing them? How old will your pups be before placing them? Will they be altered already? Or will you have a contract stating that the pups must be altered by a certain age? What kinds of supplies do you plan to send home with the pups?

How much money are you willing to put in to this? Do you have a emerency vet lined up in your area? Is your personal vet on call 24/7? What do you plan to do if something goes wrong? HOW will you know when something is going wrong? Have you spoken to a mentor yet?

There is just so much more that goes into whelping than just finding a mate for your dog.....so much more.

I am new to this thread and just wanted to add my experience for reference:

First, I ask breeding questions, not because I am breeding my dog, but because I own an intact female, who may be bred by her breeder, and sometimes I am curious, have questions, or want to get the opinions of other experienced breeders (luna's breeder is always my first stop for info). I have found the breeding area of the forum very helpful, especially when I can't get a hold of Luna's breeder and I am worried about something right that minute.

On breeding: 

I have a one year old Aussie that I co-own with her breeder. She is being shown in conformation, trained in obedience and agility and will compete in both those areas. She is intact and potentially could be bred once by her breeder (this is a contractual agreement made when we purchased Luna at 8 weeks old).

At this point in time (and mind you Luna is way too young to have puppies or be throughly evaluated for breeding), her breeder and I feel she is too growthy to tell which way her conformation with go. It may be that she is a late maturing dog and will fill out around 3 years old, or she may stay the way she is now (narrow and downhill).

For now, we focus on training and wait to see how things come together for her. We may wait until she is three and say, "ya know what, she didn't come together as planned. Let's alter her," or her breeder may say "she did come together and I think there is a place for her in my program, with a certain cross who would bring more bone and a stronger topline to the table, who also has no health issues, a great temperament, proven record, and puppies on the ground (so there is an idea of what he produces because Luna would be a first-time mom).

The goal is always to produce puppies who are better examples of the breed than their parents.

There is a lot of thought, planning, and work involved in breeding. Unless you are doing all of that and about a million things I am sure I didn't even mention, then breeding isn't the best decision.

When it comes to my pets, I feel I owe them my very best -- whether it is training, care or planning.

I hope you find that helpful.

Actually Erica (you make good points as well) my intent was to let her know that I hope she dosnt think she will be able to fetch over $150 for these pups. Charging anything more would be highly unethical becasue she cannot provide the proper certification and/or guarantee.

AgileGSD

 Breeding can be very challenging, heartbreaking and hard when things are going wrong. Most local vets know little about care of pregnant bitches, care of neonatal puppies and what to do if something goes wrong which makes having a problem with pregnant bitches or young puppies much harder to deal with. Breeding can also be very rewarding when things are going right.

 I'd suggest anyone looking to get into breeding read as much as possible about breeding. Get books about breeding and read them, read up on your breed and genetic issues they can have, have the suggested health screening done, ask questions to other breeders of your breed and check out websites that offer breeding articles (www.breedingbetterdogs.com has a lot of good articles) and don't rush into it unprepared.

This is such excellent advice. 

I think I mentioned in an earlier post about discussion with the vet, because the OP may want to change vets.  Then again, maybe I am going nuts.

Around here, MOST people have their pets neutered now and hardly any have puppies, so the vets tend not to have hands on experience with this kind of thing.  If I was to decide to breed next week, I am honestly not confident my vet would have a good chance of helping my dog if there were complications.  

I don't see anyone suggesting that the worst case scenario is LIKELY to happen.  But as you say, if anyone is going to do it, they should be prepared.  And that means KNOWING about the worst case scenario.   

Pit_Pointer_Aussie,
Thank you for your experience! What a ideal plan for breeding.

If we all take a moment to put our adverse opinions aside let me just ask....

Would you rather buy a pup from a litter produced by Pit_Pointer_Aussie's bitch or one you found in the paper with none of the mentioned credentials for the same price? Lets just pretend its $1200......which is not a exagertaion if you've looked into puppy ads lately.

AuroraLove

Pit_Pointer_Aussie,
Thank you for your experience! What a ideal plan for breeding.

If we all take a moment to put our adverse opinions aside let me just ask....

Would you rather buy a pup from a litter produced by Pit_Pointer_Aussie's bitch or one you found in the paper with none of the mentioned credentials for the same price? Lets just pretend its $1200......which is not a exagertaion if you've looked into puppy ads lately.

I can't!  I just can't put aside my adverse opinions!  I'd contact Aussie rescue!  And I'd save about $1000 which I'd spend spoiling and loving a dog already on the ground!  I just can not and will not do anything that encourages breeding, even responsible breeding.  I did it in the past, but there's  nothing in my life that needs a dog intentionally bred for my purchase.  I'm NOT judging, I have BOUGHT a purebred, intentionally bred dog in the past for specific health reasons, but there's nothing in my life that justifies it at this point.

Sorry.   

ETA: There is one justification I can think of and that would be my desire to have a super special, bred from ridiculously great border collie parents and to get into herding competitions.  But that's just my selfish interest and I won't indulge it.  I can do herding with a rescue just as easily if that's what I want and I can admire super special, ridiculously great border collies from afar when they're in the hands of people who actually use them for their intended purpose.  Farm work.