Why do people get judged when asking a breeding question????

    • Gold Top Dog

    I once had a dog that was a product of the " well the parents are great, they're pretty and they're well behaved" "we want our children to experience the miracle of birth" yadda yadda type. Okay, good for them they had healthy pups at the time, made a quick $600, picked out their perfect pup to keep and had no problems. Then there was me. I was head over heels for my dog. She was perfect in every way to me. Then, at a year and half, we find out she has some congenital disease that has progressed too far to be treated. Those people don't realize how much pain and misery they caused me because of their SELFISH desire to breed low quality dogs, with no health testing. and that's exactly what i think it is. It is totally selfish to breed a low quality dog. i'm sure i'm going to get flamed for that.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    Sure you do because the extent of your involvement with the two live example you provided is to make a condescending assumptions and judgements.

    Well, if somebody is going to call me elitist because I believe only in ethical, responsible breeding, and breeding for a purpose, then by all means call me elitist. Regardless of what I am called, at least I can sleep at night knowing that the dogs that our family has produced will not die in a shelter, will not be neglected or abused, and will not reproduce to produce more puppies (unless in an established breeding home). No, it's not even legally my breeding program, but I have dedicated my emotions, time, skill, and work (not nearly to the extent my mother has, bless her, she's a godsend when it comes to raising puppies, a 24/7 dogmom) over the past years, and know what it takes to properly raise puppies.

    For me, my ideal breeder is actually different than a lot of breeders. It's not even about the championships, or the *titles at both ends*. They are great, but they don't determine breeding quality. I've seen my fair share of well-titled dogs that I would not want to reproduce if you paid me in the thousands. And I have seen many dogs that would make GREAT contributions to the breed, neutered and totally eliminated from the gene pool simply due to a lack of titles, or due to something so silly as a mismark that isn't even genetic (!!!) but that wouldn't do *well because of the standard*. Well, phooey.

    A lot of folks know that I support in *my* breed things that go against the current Canadian standard. I support having the white Mini Schnauzer added as an accepted color, despite the harsh comments and beliefs of the current breeders. I support leaving them intact as they were intended to be, and I support that by having an all-natural girl in my home to show for it. You cannot win with an intact Mini in Canada. Does that mean, since our family does not dock, that we should not breed? Shame on whoever feels that way. We have shown our docked dogs that were bought from other breeders. Shimmer was a breeding prospect that was chosen not to be used for breeding, she was kept as such, because of her sensitive personality. She is a stunning animal. Beautiful head, perfect tailset (intact tail), beautiful expression, intelligence out the ying yang, super attentive to people, proportions are fantastic, something most people would have bred anyhow. But here she is, spayed, happy, and content as a pet with me, because despite all those great things, there was just a little tiny something that said *no* to breeding.

    There is nothing wrong with *going against the grain* if you are truly dedicated to trying to make changes to a standard. After all, it's why people go against the grain in the first place. And I do know folks who adamantly will oppose anything not in the standard, simply because they follow it as a bible rather than a guide, so I know the frustration of elitism in that manner.

    But there is something to be said for why a breed standard is there. It's what makes a German Shepherd a German Shepherd, and not a Standard Poodle. It's what makes my Minis a Mini, and not a Jack Russell Terrier. Of course it is in the eye of the beholder, but the standard is there for a reason, even if there are some things in it you decide to try to make a change for. I have to say, if it was never pushed for it, the B/S Mini would never have been recognized, but you know, it's just as popular today as any other color is. And I know that will be the same way for white if and when it is ever accepted as a recognized color. Until it is, I'll continue to support it. But you support it and treat those animals the same way you treat any other color, or any other marking, with the same esteem (in my opinon, higher esteem so that you can truly be dedicated to making a change) you do for other colors, and you don't make false comments about color/markings and how rare or special they are. You don't present them as something *unique*, or try to charge double just because it's different. You put the same importance on function, structure, temperament, and what you feel is the *ideal* dog of a breed.

    The thing about a breed standard is that it's totally and utterly subjective. You can take one breed standard, that is identical across all kennel clubs in the world, put one of each dog next to another in a line, and all of them will look different than the next, and every breeder will be able to point out the *faults* in the other, even if they are top winners in their home country.

    But what it comes down to, is that being a responsible breeder, regardless of what standard you decide to follow, involves knowing the in's and out's of breeding BEFORE you even have the dog your are breeding. IMO it takes at least two years of study and observation and mentoring to really develop a *knowledge* of responsible breeding, and that's just to be ready TO breed. It's a continuing education. I put far more emphasis on how a breeder raises their dogs, than by how many titles its parents have. Give me a puppy from untitled, good quality parents that is raised in the home, with care and environmental enrichment, and socialization to human life over a puppy from top parents, who lived its first 8 weeks in a kennel environment any day.

    I have been researching my next purebred dog (a Manchester) for several years now. And what was the deciding factor for me was not what titles adog had, but by looking into how they raise their puppies, their standards of care, how they live with their dogs on a daily basis, and where their priorities lie in terms of breeding. And everything they do matches in line with what I want in a dog of that breed, and I don't care a hootin' heck that they didn't have the BOB at Westminster or that they might have bred a non-CH bitch/stud.

    There are lots of types of breeders in this world, they can't all be painted with the same brush. But, in the end there should be some fundamental things that all breeders adhere to. And the thing is, every single one of us has a different idea of what those things should be. But at the same time, most of us all have the same idea of what it shouldn't be, and that is uneducated people, with little to no knowledge of the breed, and no experience, wanting to mate their dogs, with no goal of the future, or no goals as to what they are hoping to produce.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan
    Well, if somebody is going to call me elitist because I believe only in ethical, responsible breeding, and breeding for a purpose, then by all means call me elitist.

     

    I 100% agree with this. Elitist i am.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    Liesje

    If the Great Dane standard favors one color over another, then that's something Great Dane people need to bring up to the parent club and change. 

    Hee hee, I know you say one color over another, but look at what the standard is for a Harlequin Great Dane...so trivial.

    "The base color shall be pure white with black torn patches irregularly and well distributed over the entire body; a pure white neck is preferred.

    The black patches should never be large enough to give the appearance of a blanket,
    nor so small as to give a stippled or dappled effect.


    Eligible, but less desirable, are a few small gray patches
    (This gray is a Merle marking)
    or a white base with single black hairs
    showing through, which tend to give a salt and pepper or dirty effect.


    Any variance in color or markings described above
    shall be faulted to the extent of the deviation.
    A Great Dane which does not fall within the above color classifications must be disqualified."

    Quoted from the Great Dane Club of America's Website:

     

    I'm not refuting what you say, just saying that is NOT true of ALL dogs and their standards.  If it's a big issue, then bring it up to the parent club and get it changed.  There's a hot issue with west German showline GSDs right now so people are talking about it and DOING something about it b/c it IS affecting the breed and we don't want that to happen.

    You can't say that ALL breeders only care about color when this is just one example of one color of one breed....  If Great Dane breeders only breed for color, then I'll never own that breed, sorry.  I value dogs for their correct temperaments, drives, and sound working structure, which is why I value German Shepherds b/c color is an afterthought.  The west German show line people put too much emphisis on color and conformation and not enough on temperament and working ability so now things are going to change.... 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mechanical Angel
    I think it's terrible how under a dog section here that you can't ask a breeding question without half the people answering thinking your a bad person.

     

    You're right. People SNAP to judgment. Ideally, everyone's questions would be answered calmly and without judgment. I wish it were that way. But it's not.

    There is no such thing as a stupid question! And you are welcome to ask it here. Smile Of course now you know what you may deal with if you do. LOL But I'd like to think that there are some here who can and would answer from a position of giving information than from a "high" position of elitism.

    I also only support responsible breeding. AND if people decide to breed the 2 pups they got at a pet store, there's not much I can do about it but offer education. It doesn't help to criticize people into changing their minds. They can just go somewhere else on the internet or, worse, yet, decide to go ahead with their "breeding program" on their own, without further input.  

    Mechanical Angel
    I think that everyone should be able to ask a question about breeding or new born puppies on here without being judged.

     

    That is not going to happen. That's not going to happen anywhere where people care passionately about dogs. Maybe not everyone will be judgmental, but judging is one thing people do very well. Wink And dog people are no exception. If you want to not be judged about your breeding program, I suggest joining a nice motorcycle board and talking about it there because they will likely not care.

    Why do people judge? Because they are the ones taking care of the sick dogs out of someone's puppy mill. They are the ones who care so deeply about dogs having a wonderful quality of life. They are the ones whose hearts break when an ill-bred dog, who has little or no chance of being adopted, arrives at the shelter in which they work. That's why. Is it morally right to judge people just because they ask a question? I don't think so. But we aren't living in the land of La-la-la.

    I haven't really read your other posts, so I don't know where this originated, but I do hope you get your questions answered.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    Truley

    As for breeding, unless your dog is a proven winner and has something to contribute to the breed standard and is not going to be bred to a dog of the same breed with the same standards, forget it, they should not be bred, period.

     
    The simple answer to the OP question is that the "people" have an elitist attitude, one of the 7 deadly sins.  Those that breed as a hobby, good for them.  For those that want a one time experience or a continuation of what they consider a great dog, good for them too.

     

    No, not elitist--it's called common sense. 

    Either way, if only wanting to bring the animals with the best temperaments, best health, best/soundest physical structure into this world makes me an elitist, then yep, that is what I am.

    It is a whole lot better than the alternative--an attitude that sends 60,000-100,000 unwanted horses every year to slaughter every year (and if they are sent down to Mexico to be killed they are often stabbed in the back/neck as opposed to the captive bolt), an attitude that contributes to countless dogs being put down due to genetic health issues, an attitude that causes thousands and thousands of dogs to be put down every year due to lack of homes, an attitude that contributes to dog bites every year due to dogs being born with faulty temperaments.

    You live in Indiana--go to the Shipshewana horse auction sometime.  They run through the kill auction (yes, that is what they actually call it) around 10 am, but the kill buyers (just watch for the ones buying the horses nobody else wants) buy horses from the harness, draft, saddle horse, and pony sections as well.  Then go back to the kill pens (the ones where the horses appear the most miserable and are bunched together in groups) and take a closer look at the horses.  Many have severe physical issues, ranging from chronic to fresh injuries.  I have seen a horse there with an eye recently missing (gore still hanging out), even one with what appeared to be a skull fracture.  Many of these animals are obviously full of worms.  Even more tragically, there is nothing wrong with many of the horses there--it's just that nobody wants them.  Then you need to stay until after the auction is over--that's when they load the horses into the double decker livestock semis (the second floor is too short for most horses to stand comfortably and the guys loading pay no attention to the size of the horses going in).  They scream at and strike the terrified animals until they load.

    Once they are loaded they are sent to holding areas after what is generally a 30+ hour trip with out food or water.  Once at the holding area they are generally given little water and not fed at all.  They then face hundreds more miles on the rode (often in uncovered trailers), and many die on the way there.  The slaughter process makes even the most high-kill shelters in the US look like places of refuge.

    Why do I bring this up?  Well, because it is attitudes just like yours that got these horses were they are.  Unlike with dogs, there are very, very few "oops" horse breedings.  I've been around horse people since I was 8, and I've only heard of it happening once.  In all likelihood, upwards of 99% of those horses that you will see if you go to Shipsy are there because someone decided that it would be cool to raise a foal/cool to see their horse give birth/had a free breeding so why not/knew the more horses they pumped out the more money they would make (as is the case with race horses)/figured they might as well--at least they could sell the foal/were breeding for color, markings, etc and didn't get what they wanted.  Just like in dogs, there are certain things that people want in a horse--a good temperament, a brain, physical soundness, decent physical structure, the ability to do what they were bred to do--if the person who breeds them does not do all that they can to ensure that their foal has these attributes, they are setting them up for a difficult life and a horrible end.

    Anyone bringing an animal into this world has the responsibility to make sure that the lives THEY CREATE have the best chance possible to flourish and thrive in their future homes--that means excellent health+tests, a 100% temperament, structural soundness, and an ability to do what the breed is intended for (proven).  Period.  If that belief makes me an elitist, fantastic!  

    BTW--elitism is NOT one of the Seven Deadly Sins..... 

    • Gold Top Dog

    RidgebackGermansShep

    Kim_MacMillan
    Well, if somebody is going to call me elitist because I believe only in ethical, responsible breeding, and breeding for a purpose, then by all means call me elitist.

     

    I 100% agree with this. Elitist i am.

    I have to say that is my view as well. It may have to do with the simple fact that my favored breed is the most exploited and over bred. I cant say that if i favored a more rare breed I would feel the same way. However I think the importance of sticking to the breed standard is underestimated and is quite sad because the orginal pride and attraction to the bred can be easily lost.

    For example" The APBT is supposed to be a lean, skinny athlete weighing no more then 50lbs. A couple of people decided to breed them to their standards and now 25 years later we have fat 100lbs pit bulld with bad temperments and a whole variety of health problems. Something real pit bull enthusiasts cringe at.

    Don't be so hasty to wave that off thinking "that will never happen to my breed". Its happening more then you think

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    Oh please don't make nature a rocket science exercise.  I do my part for the shelter dog by fostering.  I have purchased puppies from petshops.  I have purchased my Danes from a family who advertised in the local paper.  I've adopted Danes in shelters.  I will continue to do all this.  One day I hope to experience puppies being born and also raising puppies.  Maybe when I retire.  If I have questions, I will ask and I know forum members will respond.

     

    Pardon me while I fall down laughing.  I've never bred or been present at a birth and the thought scares the crap out of me.  Reading and hearing stories of stillborn pups, emergency cesareans, mastitis, etc. is enough to teach me (JQP) that is not something to be undertaken lightly or with the advice of some Internet message board! 

    If you have a burning desire to "experience puppies being born and also raising puppies", there are literally hundreds available every spring in shelters and rescues who can satisfy that desire for you.  The added benefit being that most shelters and rescues will have members/volunteers/and veterinarians available to help you through the process and you won't have to post a midnight post with a subject line like "HELP! I think my dog has a stuck puppy!! URGENT!!!"

    I am elitist and proud of it, and I'm not even a breeder or a member of a particular breed club.  I just know it's not something to be undertaken casually or without a good experienced support system to help you along.

    So as not to "judge" but rather to "educate and discourage", I've bookmarked these pages, and they'll be my pat response to breeding inquiries in the future.


    http://www.dogpro.org/index.php?pageID=62 

    http://www.labbies.com/reproduction3.htm 

    http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder3.html 

     

    And this one, just to hopefully scare the would be breeder into spaying:

    http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/pyo.html 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mechanical Angel
    I think that everyone should be able to ask a question about breeding or new born puppies on here without being judged.

     

    In short, because this is a community, not an encyclopedia.  We have opinions, questions of our own, and concerns for the welfare of all dogs.  We are real people.  If you ask a question of real people you will get more than just facts.  That is the whole point of a forum and asking questions of one rather than just googling a specific answer and reading it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well, first off before i was very judgmental and trying to be a know it all.. with the ethics of breeding. But now I know people won't respond to you in that way if you say things about them from the start negatively when they are just asking questions. I guess, what I am trying to say that we have different opinions that we should respect. If we want them to learn good views in ethical breedings, we should not judge too soon. If we advice them in a positive manner they will listen to us. Smile I am trying to promote ethical breeding in my country, there are less puppy mills here and while the problem is still weak you should strike it out before it becomes big. I don't judge those who breed for profit as there are so many of them (I am not one of them, i just know them sometimes even friends with them) I just try to explain them my views on how they can improve the breed. After all in the end it will benefit the dogs, it is them who deserve the best. Smile 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Ok, I stand corrected.

    I guess I am someone's definition of an elitist.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I might be looking to breed Possum in like 4 years. Its just a thought. Im not sure yet though. Just looking for info and what people think.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mechanical Angel

    I might be looking to breed Possum in like 4 years. Its just a thought. Im not sure yet though. Just looking for info and what people think.

     

    If you are serious about doing it right, then the best thing you can do is find a reputable breeder who has been showing and trialing the breed for decades, get yourself a mentor.  They can answer all of your questions as they relate to the dog's particular breed.  Another good idea would be co-owning, again with a breeder/mentor.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Truley
    As for breeding, unless your dog is a proven winner and has something to contribute to the breed standard and is not going to be bred to a dog of the same breed with the same standards, forget it, they should not be bred, period.

    I agree because today we have an over-population of dogs.  In the future, there may be a place for breeding healthy, pet quality dogs since most people care more about general appearance, size, health, and temperament than conformation.  I don't know that there will ever be enough proven show dogs to provide enough dogs for the pet market.

    Personally I don't care if my pets are "purebred", but if I were to buy a puppy, I would want a dog with a known health history back at least 3 generations.  That history seldom exists except in the purebred world and the "designer dog" world.  (I won't have anything to do with the latter.)

    By the way, I hope that everyone realizes that "purebred" doesn't mean that a dog is "pure" (whatever that means).  "Purebred" means that a dog breeds "true".  In other words, if you breed two Chihuahuas, you get a Chihuahua.  If you breed two Great Danes, you get a Great Dane.   Etc.

    People want to have a reasonable expectation that their new pup will grow up to be an animal that fits into their lives.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mechanical Angel
    I might be looking to breed Possum in like 4 years. Its just a thought. Im not sure yet though. Just looking for info and what people think.

    Personally, I would be scared to do that because I have heard so many stories of even experienced breeders losing their female due to pregnancy complications.  Even a normal pregnancy would strain my budget. 

    If you are up to taking the risk of losing Possum, then you need to take a hard look at her and decide if she is breeding quality.  You need to learn to pick a genetically appropriate mate to minimize the risk that both parents carry the same bad recessive gene.  You need to learn to whelp and to take care of orphan puppies.  You need to put back enough money for all the breeding costs, plus extra to take care of Possum and the pups if things don't go well.  Etc., etc., etc.

    None of us can judge Possum's health and temperament.  Yeck, you can't either yet.  She could turn out to be hypoglycemic with little chance of surviving a pregnancy.  She could have a bad overbite and a nasty temper. 

    None of us can judge whether you are willing and able to put in the work to learn what you need to know.  We sure don't know your finances!!

    I'll look for my lists of breeding links and books.