my girl's whelp

Dog_ma

So *IF* the biology is similar in dogs, I would not feed Cocoa any formula since he is gaining well. He needs to be on those nipples.

The biology is similar, but you need to think multiple births and a very small mother.  The idea of bottle feeding Cocoa periodically is to give his littler brother a better chance at getting mom's milk.  The smaller pup isn't gaining as fast as Cocoa, so his bigger brother may be draining the t*i*t*s and leaving little for his smaller brother.  It won't hurt Cocoa to miss out on some of his mom's milk and the little guy really needs it.

Cocoa (with his strong suckle) does need to be encouraged to use the t*i*t*s that are not producing much in order to improve their milk flow.

ETA:  Cocoa probably won't appreciate that exercise, because he won't get a full milk flow, but it won't hurt him.

shamrockmommy

And then again, next time she's in heat, only allow one or 2 ties, as random breeding over 2 weeks results in "runts" who are actually younger and less developed than their larger siblings. 

See this post for an earlier discussion on why there is at most a couple of days difference in the ages of the pups in a litter.

wow- thank you so much for your replies! You've given me a lot of information and links

I haven't wormed yet, and so I'm going to look through the pet store on Sunday (as tommorow I have a really big day, and will be very busy)

I'm going to try a preemie bottle (I pretty much ruined my own- I had two, and I misplaced one, and cut too big of a hole in the other)

Mr.Noname (Marshmellow?Angel?Prince?) is about half the size of his brother now (3.25 oz vs 6 oz) but hes doing great in all other aspects, and I have to keep in mind that its possible Cocoa will turn out to be a mini and his brother will turn out to be a toy.
Sasha hasn't run completely dry, only the front nipples (of which I can pull out a bead of milk if I really try) and the upper nipples are full of milk, but they aren't like "normal" nipples, they are short, puffy circles, rather then being upright. I can't get either of the pups to nurse on those, ( I have to pinch the skin up for them to get a grip, and when I let go the nipple falls out of their mouth) the vet says the highest nipples have the most milk, but her nipples up there aren't suited for nursing. ?

their little nails aren't very sharp at all (I'm keeping an eye on them)

I'm going to go take a look at all those links now, thanks!

DellaBella

I haven't wormed yet, and so I'm going to look through the pet store on Sunday (as tommorow I have a really big day, and will be very busy)

Be careful what product you get.  Safe-Guard granules (for roundworms, hookworms, whipworms, and Taenia tapeworms) are OK for Sasha, but the pups will need need a liquid.   Look for liquid pyrantel pamoate (for just roundworms and hookworms).  Brands include Nemex - see a picture here.   Note that Sasha could also be given liquid Nemex.

Don't forget to get a syringe capable of accurately measuring small amounts.  A 1lb pup needs only 0.5ml (or cc) of pyrantel pamoate and I doubt even Cocoa will reach that weight by his first worming next Saturday.  A second syringe that measures larger amounts may be needed if you plan to give the liquid to Sasha.

DellaBella

Sasha hasn't run completely dry, only the front nipples (of which I can pull out a bead of milk if I really try) and the upper nipples are full of milk, but they aren't like "normal" nipples, they are short, puffy circles, rather then being upright. I can't get either of the pups to nurse on those, ( I have to pinch the skin up for them to get a grip, and when I let go the nipple falls out of their mouth) the vet says the highest nipples have the most milk, but her nipples up there aren't suited for nursing. ?

Ok, I am getting a little confused.  How many normal nipples are still producing milk?  How many normal nipples are dry?  How many nipples are malformed, but still producing milk?

Did you ask the vet if there is any way to "pump" the malformed nipples?  What did he/she tell you to do about the dry nipples?  Did he/she note any signs of mastitis [inflammation of the mammary gland(s), associated with bacterial infection]?

In chronic or subclinical mastitis, the main complaint may be failure of offspring to thrive.

DellaBella

the vet says the highest nipples have the most milk, but her nipples up there aren't suited for nursing. ?

*sigh* like on a cow...the HINDMOST nipples have the most milk...that means those further back between her hind legs. The strange appearing teats are like so engorged they cannot be latched onto. The same thing can happen to women. She needs to be let-down and some of that milk released so the nippl can regain it's normal shape. Has the vet looked at these teats?

My bitch had  lots of oddly shaped teats...some were like cat teats long and pink...others like womens...one even had two spigots on one teat...ALL were functional if the pup were put to it..and the bitch was not so engorged the milk could not let down. Even inverted nipples can be useful if you have help from a strong nursing pup...

Try the warm compresses on the oddly shaped teats...very warm and pressed to the teats...massage them...you can also run warm water over them. If any of her teats seem overly warm to the touch...tender...or hard...she needs to see a vet.

rwbeagles

*sigh* like on a cow...the HINDMOST nipples have the most milk...that means those further back between her hind legs.

Now that makes more sense!  I was looking all over the place trying to figure out what the "highest" nipples were. 

That makes a great deal of sense.  In my experience, those teets are usually the fullest, and I've often wondered about the expression regarding suckling the hind one that is supposed to sound like it's a bad thing.

Gina's suggestions are very sound and should help the situation greatly.  It really sounds like her milk just needs some help letting down so the pups can utilize it.

The dam will only produce enough milk to supply the pups she has regarding their demand...She's not going to be full like she would with 8 pups

worming seek your vet. Get a fecal and get your wormer from him/her so your getting the right dosage as well as for the right worms.

Are you starting to feed mash yet?

I looked at some wormers, and there are A LOT of them, so I'm going to talk to my vet before I chose one.

 As for her teets,  by higher up I ment the ones close to her "armpits" and they've always been misformed, and puffy. Sort of like on a human. The vet said that it seems like the lower ones are fuller, but the higher ones have the most milk, which seems to hold true, because the pups haven't nursed on those, and they definetly still have the most milk.

I put ribbons around the pups necks (loosly) and they are doing great with them (and they look very cute as well) 

Sasha seems to be paying less and less attention to the pups, she is still with them enough, but in the first day or two I had to feed her water through a dropper, and bring food to her, because she wouldn't leave her puppies at all. Now, she's leaving them for hours at a time. Before, she would go outside, and finish her business in less than a minute  (usually about 30 seconds total) then race to the door, and jump and bark, and then race back to the puppies. Now she takes her time, and when she's done, sits with me until Shadow is done, and walks back to the pups very calmly. If i leave the room, she gets up and comes with me, even if that means leaving the pups. She still keeps them warm, nurses them, and potties them, she is just less concerned with them.

Is this normal now that they are a bit stronger?

Also, like some of you mentioned, the dosage is by the pound. Sasha wasn't even two pounds at six weeks, so it will be a while before the pups are big enough for one dosage.

Also, I think I'm going to have everyone use hand sanitizer before handling the puppies, but I'm not sure if I should bother doing this, will it really make much of a difference?

Thank you for all your responses.

By mash you mean a mixture of formula and puppy food?

No I'm not, remember they are only 8 days old now!

DellaBella

everyone use hand sanitizer before handling the puppies

well "everyone" shouldn't be handling them. The less the better, IMO. Until they are up and around I'd be really caerful about how many people fuss with them. You can give them the minor stresses and handling a pup needs to develop confidence, yourself or with the aid of a couple trusted people.

Hold them daily and turn them upside down for a second or three...take them out of their comfort zone...put them on a damp cloths or cold plastic table top for a couple seconds, etc. Doing this a couple times a week can really help them develop more quickly and have a better outlook and confidence later on. As they move about place obstacles and novel items in their environment for the same reasons. Puppies as young as 3 weeks will leave their nest to poop and pee so encourage that by having a litter area for them.

DellaBella

Also, like some of you mentioned, the dosage is by the pound. Sasha wasn't even two pounds at six weeks, so it will be a while before the pups are big enough for one dosage.

Regardless of their weight pups should be wormed at 2, 4, 6, and 8 weeks.  There is almost a 100% chance that they have roundworms and that can effect their growth and health.  Roundworms steal their food.  Do not wait until the pups are 2 lbs to worm!!

If the dosage is 1 ml (or cc) per 2 lbs, then a pup that is only 1 lb gets 1/2 that dosage, a pup that is 1/2 pound gets 1/4 that dosage, etc.

So a 1 lb (16 oz) pup gets 0.5 ml, a 0.5 lb (8 oz) pup gets 0.25 ml, a 0.25 lb (4 oz) pup gets 0.125 ml, a 0.125 lb (2 oz) pup gets 0.0625 ml, etc. 

One pound is 16 ounces, so another way of look at this is that 1 ml (or cc) per 2 lbs = 1/32 ml per oz = 0.03125 ml per oz.

If you are not ABSOLUTELY sure that you know how to use a syringe to measure that small an amount, get the vet to show you.  By next Saturday you should be prepared to worm the pups for the first time.

Did you get Safe-Guard for Sasha?  She is the source for the pup's roundworms. 

DellaBella

As for her teets,  by higher up I ment the ones close to her "armpits" and they've always been misformed, and puffy. Sort of like on a human. The vet said that it seems like the lower ones are fuller, but the higher ones have the most milk, which seems to hold true, because the pups haven't nursed on those, and they definetly still have the most milk.

Have you tried putting warm wash cloths on those "higher" nipples?  If you can get the milk to "drop", the pups may still be able to use them - malformed or not.

DellaBella

I put ribbons around the pups necks (loosly) and they are doing great with them (and they look very cute as well) 

Pictures!  Pictures!  Pictures!

By everyone I meant myself, as well as my parents, my brother, and the ocasional visitor (like, today, family came to visit)

I'll call the vet about worming info, and I'll do all three at once.

I have a dropper that measures 4ml, and if thats too big I can borrow a syringe from school.

I haven't done the warm moist towl yet, I'll do that right before bed.

The pups are getting closer to walking, they are using their legs more than before, when they would just use their bellies.
I was curious about the roundworms, how do they get transmitted to Sasha, if she only goes outside 3x daily for about a minute or two, and doesn't leave the yard?

I don't doubt that she has them, She had tapeworms in the past (because she got into the next yard, and they leave out food and such for stray cats, so I guess a cat had tapeworms, and it got transmitted to her somehow that way)

We practiced fecal exams earlier in the year, and took a look at *** from recently wormed horses, I forget what its called, but we put the *** through a plastic thing that seperates any possible eggs from the ***, and floats it up to the top, and then we took a sample and looked at it under a microscope. Should I do this with Sasha? (I'm worming either way)

On the new puppy owner front, I am waiting before I make any guarentees, but there is one person who is very interested. Her neice is the senior V.P of my FFA chapter, and that girl is going out for state office, works at a vet clinic, and is an overall great person whom has given me advice and asked me about Sasha and the pups every day since I told her Sasha was pregnant. If her Aunt is anything like her, I know the pup will be in great hands. Also, like I mentioned earlier, family came over, whom we don't see too often, and my cousin wanted a puppy. That doesn't mean anything, seeing as he is 11, but my aunt and Uncle seemed semi-interested, but they weren't sure he would take enough responsibility. He's a great kid, very polite and well mannered, talented, and with a great personality. I Know he would make a great companion to one of the pups.

Andrea (the girl at school) said her aunt wants to see a few pictures, so I gave the pups their very first "photoshoot" and I took beautiful pictures of everyone (including sasha, sporting her lovely dress) And I'll get those uploaded as soon as possible.

Thanks again everyone