my girl's whelp

 The same teets dried up again, (I can get a small bead of milk if I try) but the pups are doing well, Cocoa gained another .5oz, (he's been doing that consistently since day one, so thats great!) and Mr.Noname gained .25oz

He's not gaining as much, so I'm just going to supplement more, and try not to worry too much as long as he gains at least .25oz daily.

Thanks for the advice, I'll def. follow through.

I was curious why Cocoa won't nurse off the bottle though- He really doesn't need it, but I tried when Sasha dried before, and he pushes the bottle out with his tongue. How do you get a pup like that to nurse? I'd like to be able to nurse them both off the bottle whenever Sasha gets dry, to give her a chance to produce some more. (but I'll keep trying to express milk from them so her body triggers those milk making hormones)

Thanks again for all your advice 

DellaBella

I was curious why Cocoa won't nurse off the bottle though- He really doesn't need it, but I tried when Sasha dried before, and he pushes the bottle out with his tongue. How do you get a pup like that to nurse?

Have you tried more than more type of nipple?  Some pups prefer human nursing nipples.  Your tiny guys might go for a preemie nipple.

I have read several places that raw beef/calves liver and buttermilk blended together in a food blender and fed to a dam helps her to produce more milk.

Opinions?

Please keep working on trying to get Cocoa to take a bottle.  Maybe covering the nipple with milk before starting?

If you can persuade him to bottle feed and then sleep, then the little one can have Sasha all to himself for a while.

Aside:   Did you ever take a real good look at Hope's tongue?

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/20202.htm&word=microglossia

Tongue Anomalies: Ankyloglossia or microglossia refers to incomplete or abnormal development of the tongue. It is often referred to as "bird tongue" in dogs and may be a component of the fading puppy syndrome. Affected puppies have difficulty nursing and do poorly. Oral examination reveals missing or underdeveloped lateral and rostral thin portions of the tongue that result in prehensile and motility disturbances. It is generally lethal. 

Hmmmm, when I was nursing, I was told that beer would help my milk production......please don't try that at home.

The more those pups nurse, or at least suckle, the more milk momma will produce.

DellaBella, when you get a chance, you need to start thinking about collars.  If you get Cocoa and his brother used to having something around their necks early, you will have less trouble latter.  Just a little stretchy rickrack would do for now.

When they start playing together, they need collars with a little tab that sticks out.  That way they can pull each other around by the tab.  This will make leashes much less scary.

You might consider getting some inexpensive litterbands like these:  http://www.dog.com/item/litterbands-id-bands--8-pack/

There is a better description here:  http://www.litterbands.com/

You obviously don't need 8 collars for 2 pups  , but having extra clean ones could come in handy.

DellaBella, have you checked to see if the tips of those sharp little nails need to be trimmed a tiny bit?

Excellent point Janet.  Those sharp little nails can turn feeding time into a nightmare for poor momma.

And I totally agree with the importance of collars.

I would be wary of suggesting anything to bring in MORE milk if we do not know if the nipples are impacted...or completely dry. "Dry" meaning no milk can be expressed could mean an impaction as well as legitimately dry. IF she is honest to goodness dry...the herb fenugreek is te easiest way to up production.

This bitch has 2 puppies and honestly...she doesn't need much milk. The problem seems to be that one puppy is not nursing well. IMO a pup that is not nursing well or tires...needs to be TUBE FED. It should also be checked over for any abnormalities like cleft palate or heart irregularities.

shamrockmommy

And then again, next time she's in heat, only allow one or 2 ties, as random breeding over 2 weeks results in "runts" who are actually younger and less developed than their larger siblings.

 This is actually not true but a commonly believed misconception.

 I know nothing about the particulars of dog lactation, but if things are similar to humans - "resting" her nipples will not lead to more milk. It will lead to less. Many human mamas accidentally harm their milk production by supplementing with formula. Manual stimulation is no where near as effective as a nursing baby.

So *IF* the biology is similar in dogs, I would not feed Cocoa any formula since he is gaining well. He needs to be on those nipples. This is an IF, as I said I have no idea if dogs are the same. It makes sense that they would be, but I don't know that as a fact.

(Mostly I'm reading this thread to learn stuff, but nursing human babies is something I know about :) )
 

Bottle feeding is actually not as easy as most people would think. Puppies often don't take right to feeding from a bottle. Different bottles work better or worse too. One reproduction vet suggested using human premie bottles, as she felt they worked the best. You may need to try multiple bottles before you find one that works. The opening is important too, milk should flow out of it pretty easily. The formula you are using is another factor and I would not suggest using store bought puppy milk replacements. They are linked to cataracts and have pretty poor quality ingredients. When I had to try one in a pinch, my puppy didn't like the taste at all. You would do much better making your own.

This is an article by a very experienced breeder about bottle feeding puppies: http://leerburg.com/bottlefeeding.htm

AgileGSD

The formula you are using is another factor and I would not suggest using store bought puppy milk replacements. They are linked to cataracts and have pretty poor quality ingredients. When I had to try one in a pinch, my puppy didn't like the taste at all. You would do much better making your own.

     Agile, that's an excellent point! I'll never forget several years back on another repro board, a Corgi breeder with orphaned pups had an entire litter go temporarily blind after a few weeks on Esbilac. That scared the living daylights out of me - I've never bought Esbilac, and it's overpriced, too. I use a home made formula of evaporated milk, two raw egg yolks (no whites!), plain yogurt, and some boiling water to thin it out for bottle feeding. It's also a gerat way to increase milk production in the bitch, but be careful not to overfeed, as it is rich.
     For pups that don't like the bottle, try rubbing some milk on the nippleso the pup realizes what it's for. If they still refuse, squirt a small amount of milk in their mouth - by that time, a healthy pup should get the picture. If that fails, and the pup really has a poor suckling reflex, you need to tube feed. 
    There's also a possibility there is a congenital problem. Can you feel a pronounced heartbeat when you pick him up? Is he warm to the touch?What does the pup weigh now, and what was his birthweight? If he's gaining at his own pace, that's fine, just so long as he is gaining on a daily basis & not simply maintaining weight or loosing. There may also be diarrhea you're not seeing, if the dam is cleaning up after him. Sometimes, when I have a pup that is colicy or not gaining well, I give them Kaopectate in a dropper & it does wonders!
     They're probably old enough where they need to be wormed. You can get liquid pyrantel under the brand names Evict or Nemex at any pet store, just make sure it's pyrantel and not the cheaper piperzaine ... Also give the bitch a worming when you do the pups.
     Keep us posted ...

oh wow - I never new Espliac caused those kinds of problems! We've used it for YEARS - with no problem! It's made by the same company that does the KMR (kitten formula) and we use that all the time to - more than puppy. One of my cats was raised on KMR, and is just fine. I guess it depends on the pup. I'm sure anything homemade is always better though - and of course, nothing beats mom =]

any updates?

ETA: we used premie nipples for a litter of pitty pups - so even those may be too big for your poodle pups. What about a kitten bottle? KMR makes very nice ones - make sure you cut a 'x' in the top of the nipple (even a human one) to get a nice flow going.

HoundMusic

They're probably old enough where they need to be wormed.

No, not yet.  They will only be a week old tomorrow.

Dellabella, have you wormed Sasha since she whelped?