my girl's whelp

http://www.chelsea-collies.com/newborn.html

 This is a good site about newborn puppy care. Sorry to hear Hope died :(

DellaBella

I tried really  hard not to get my hopes up- I knew things were grim. She would get better, then get worse again. It wasn't a surprise, but of course, its still really sad. My dad tried to console me, telling me for every first litter, there is always a runt, and it always dies. The problem must have started in the womb. When she came, her cord was much thinner then the other pups. She was also the last out, so she was pushed farther up. from the womb, she wasn't getting enough nourishment to last on the outside.

     Very sorry about the loss of Hope   At least it's some consolation the other pups are doing well ...
 
     Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not flaming you, but offering constructive criticism. I don't blame your dad for trying to console you, but if you want to be a breeder - and you ARE a breeder as you deliberately bred two dogs - you need to grow a thick skin and take responsibility for the lives you brought into this world. I'm not one of those who believe only certain people with a bank account that has more zeros in it than I'll ever see in my life or who show or title their dogs have the right to breed. I do however firmly believe this is a privelage, and I further believe "A good man is concerned with the welfare of his animals". (Proverbs 12:10) It's a massive responsibility and you must have the time to devote to the pups once they are whelped. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and have taken the time to educate yourself about the technical aspects of whelping, which is a good start. But it's just that, a start. If you made the decision to bred you need to hear this. DOgs do not always have runts in the first litter, and runts are not inherently ill or weaker. They certainly do not die, simply becuase they're runts. They usually are positioned in the utereus where they are nto able to take in as much nourishment as the larger pups. And Hope did show signs that she was not recieving proper nourishment - the bright pink hue to her mucous membranes you described is synonomous with a severely dehydrated puppy. If you weren't prepared to administer a lactated ringer yourself, and tube feed (and this pup was a candidate for tube feeding b/c you mentioned she did not have much of a suckling reflex) then there is no other outcome to be expected. Breeding is difficult and it involves more than a book knowledge. I think you're young, you have potential. You need to hold off on this endeavor until you have the time to devote at least 2-3 weeks to the pups. You need to find a breed, a mentor, and forget this nonsense about mixing breeds just for the hell of mixing them.

DellaBella

As for the case of the missing placenta- I called three different vets to make sure, and they all told me the same exact thing.

The placenta will most likely liquify and be reobsorbed into the body, or it can take up to two days to be delivered. As long as Sasha is alert, and not lethargic or weak, and has no fever, then I have nothing to worry about. If she does become sick looking, then she needs to come in for a clean out

     I don't believe you. That's utter hogwash. It's your dog, and I'm sorry to say you haven't even begun to learn your lesson on this one. If you honestly believe the placenta will be reabsorbed into her body, you're very naieve, and fooling only yourself. I'll do you a favor. When you begin to see Sasha shivering and refusing to nurse those pups, that is the point where she will have already begun to become septic from the placenta that will have rotted inside her. Do yourself a favor and take her to the Vet at that point, but I have to tell you, if those pups drink even the slightest amount fo toxic milk from the infection she'll sustain from the placenta, they will die. This is why manyexperienced breeders keep Oxytocin on hand, to flush out the uterus. Retained placentas *can* kill dogs and the pups is left untreated. The only way to deal with a possible retained placenta is to give the dog a shot of Oxytocin to stimulate heavy contractions. I don't know of ANY Vet who would ever suggest doing nothing if you suspect a placenta is still inside. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but it does seem like you are a BYB, and I don't take using that phrase lightly ...
 
     You need to read the first link if you even have the shadow of a doubt she has a placenta still in there ... NOT trying to scare you. This is the REALITY of breeding.

DOG ALMOST DIES SIX DAYS AFTER PUPS WERE BORN:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/breedingdogs/damalmostdiesday6.htm

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/breeding/retplacenta.htm

http://www.debbiejensen.com/care_mother.html

I'm very sorry about the baby girl.

I will send my thoughts that Sasha stays healthy. I know nothing about breeding, but I'd consider what some of the experienced members are saying.

Good luck with the babies. 

Hound- I can PM you the numbers to the vet offices I called if you really don't think I called. You can call yourself, and hear for yourself. Also, I'm not mixing breeds for the sake of mixing breeds - yeah, the dogs are two different sizes, but the puppies are still 100% AKC registerable.

As for a label, I wouldn't call myself a BYB nor a breeder. A breeder, to me, is someone who did take the time to show and prove their dogs in shows, and is breeding to improve the breed. I'll admit that I never did that.

A BYB is a person who breeds for money. They don't care at all about the pups, they just want the money. They see each pup as a sac of cash. That is a BYB to me, and that is most definetly not me.

So why did I breed?

     Because I knew I could place all the pups, because I knew I could care for all the pups, because I knew I would be able to learn whatever was necessary to care for the pups.

I understand you weren't trying to flame me though, and I thank you for that.

Also, you said that not all litters have runts, and not all ru nts die- I know that. I don't think you read all the post I made, because Janet tells me that, and then I wrote that I know not all litters have runts, and not all runts die- my dad was only trying to console me.

 

DellaBella

A BYB is a person who breeds for money. They don't care at all about the pups, they just want the money. They see each pup as a sac of cash. That is a BYB to me, and that is most definetly not me.

DellaBella, I understand that you do not consider yourself a BYBer.  However, whether or not one makes money on the pups or whether or not one loves the pups is not in the definition of what makes a BYBer for most people on this forum.

Your definition of a BYBer is closer to what this forum considers to be a puppy miller.

Responsible Breeders vs Backyard Breeders
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html 
 
Backyard Breeders' and Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses 
http://www.ozarkdogs.com/byb.htm 

DellaBella

Hound- I can PM you the numbers to the vet offices I called if you really don't think I called. You can call yourself, and hear for yourself. Also, I'm not mixing breeds for the sake of mixing breeds - yeah, the dogs are two different sizes, but the puppies are still 100% AKC registerable.

     How can the pups be AKC registrable if the sire & dam are different breeds??? I'm sure you have AKC papers on both parents, but AKC will NOT register your litter if both parents were not of the same breed. Furthermore, I don't believe AKC is an indicator of quality by any means. I actually believe UKC is the most reputable registry in the US, lol  But quality depends solely on the breeder/breeding stock, and this is not a well bred litter because you have not selectively bred the parents - you had a dog & a bitch, and put them together.

     I don't need phone numbers of your Vets ... It's your dog, and I'm not giving you this information to prove myself correct - I'm trying to give you advice as to how to raise a healthy litter. You came here, to a public forum, and are recieving the advice you asked for. I don't have the time or inclination to call your Vets ... 

 

DellaBella

As for a label, I wouldn't call myself a BYB nor a breeder. A breeder, to me, is someone who did take the time to show and prove their dogs in shows, and is breeding to improve the breed. I'll admit that I never did that.

     You ARE a breeder, becuase you intentionally bred two dogs. That makes you the breeder of this litter. A breeder's ethics have nothing to do with how much profit is made on the litter, but their ethics and the soundness of their stock and what they produce. Showing is a hobby, not a prerequisite for reputable breeding. However, you shouldn't be breeeding AT ALL unless you can improve or contribute to the breed with dogs that have as few faults as possible OR unless you otherwise want dogs for specific and useful purposes such as work. If you're not producing well bred pups and have little knowledge of the breed, are just sticking two dogs together simply to get pups for any reason (profit, to have pups out of your bitch, b/c your friends want pups, etc.) you are an amateur breeder, i.e. a BYB. Amateurs shouldn't be breeding.      

They are not two different breeds, They are two different SIZES. I researched this beforehand, and spoke to the breeder about it. The pups are registerable, I just have to look at them when they are 8weeks I measure them, and keep in mind how much they will probably grow. The larger ones will be minis (10-15 inches) and the smaller ones will be toys (under 10 inches) If I recall corectly, Shadow's mother was a mini, but his father was a toy. (or the other way around)

Anyway- I will not continue to argue this any longer for 3 reasons:

1) The last thing I should worry about now is the opinions of a random person on the net.

2) No matter how much I argue it- You will never change your way of thinking, and I don't expect you to. Everyone has different opinions, I respect that, and I don't look down upon others with different opinions

3) Even if I were to agree with you- Okay, I shouldn't be breeding. I admit it.

what does that change ? I still have two puppies that need me. That changes nothing.

                 If you have something to say other then "you shouldn't be breeding, you are a horrible person" go ahead. If not- I need to care for my puppies, and my girl, and I don't have time to be bothered by you.

Wow. I would really listen to what HoundMusic is saying. She's been breeding for quite some time, and has had many well litters. She has much more expierence than you do, and I would not knock her. She's offering you advice on things that you know nothing about.

I've recently had three mommas with litters at the shelter I work at. One momma came in with one pup already dead - but it was not the runt. They were all thrown in a box, and that one poor pup was squished on the bottom under his siblings. The other 9 puppies were just fine - even the runt. We did bottle feed at first to help out mom, but I would not continue to do this for very long. I would let mom handle things - pups have a tendency to over eat, and you don't want to overfeed them because they will keep eating. The other mommas didn't loose any pups, and they each had 7 and 9 pups in their litters. Puppies don't always make it, and there is usually a reason for it. Mom pushes away her young because she knows things that we don't know - I see it all the time, esp. with cats. That's probably what she was doing when she was licking them, not being too strong, but trying to get her away from her other babies, as she knew that that one was not ok. While there were a bunch of things you could have done for her, it's in the past - and I wont get into it now. Just be more prepared next time. If I have a pup that I think I may have problems with (or a kitten) I bring home LRS and syringes to force feed them.

Good luck with the other two, and watch mom - I know retained placentas are bad news, I don't care what those vets have told you. Just keep an eye on her, and hope for the best, I guess.

Make sure to get that dewormer, worms can be deadly to little pups! And also make sure not to put anything for fleas on them, or mom. Keep the area clean where they are, and use a flea comb. Flea preventions are toxic to pups until they are much older and bigger.

.

HoundMusic

  How can the pups be AKC registrable if the sire & dam are different breeds??? I'm sure you have AKC papers on both parents, but AKC will NOT register your litter if both parents were not of the same breed. Furthermore, I don't believe AKC is an indicator of quality by any means. I actually believe UKC is the most reputable registry in the US, lol  But quality depends solely on the breeder/breeding stock, and this is not a well bred litter because you have not selectively bred the parents - you had a dog & a bitch, and put them together.

 

Hound, one quick thing - they're varieties here in the US- not separate breeds. Like 13 & 15" beagles. So crossing variety lines, while done very infrequently by reputable breeders (because you can end up with a whole litter too tall for one variety and too small to be competive in the other) is 'legal' by AKC rules. Ditto in UKC, I believe. Some colors (red, specifically) have been brought into one variety or another purely by breeding across the varieties.

DellaBella

  If you have something to say other then "you shouldn't be breeding, you are a horrible person" go ahead. If not- I need to care for my puppies, and my girl, and I don't have time to be bothered by you.

     I absolutely do not believe you're a horrible person by any stretch of the imagination. I was actually impressed by the willingness to educate yourself on the process, and the extent you already know. No one is talking down to you, or dictating what you should do. I'm not bragging, so don't take it that way, but I have had several litters of pups in the past few years, and have not lost one single pup yet. That's partly due to genetics, but puppies are delicate little things, and ANYTHING can go wrong. So preparedness & going the extra mile is what saves puppy lives. My last litter, I came close to loosing all four pups. The bitch would not nurse them as she was still in labor, and one of them took a chill, and was ice cold to the touch. And for several days after the whelping, the pups were untirifty for several reasons. I had a bear of a time with the "runt" who was hypoglycemic at birth, was the pup that was ice cold, and had NO suckling reflex. She also came down with bad diarrhea, as did the rest of the litter (b/c the bitch had a low grade infection) and all the pups were BRIGHT pink on the paw pads, muzzle. I felt that it was a very similar situation to what you were going through, and was offering advice and experience.

     In reality, I did originally believe that since you were so willing to educate yourself, you were not going to be a garden variety BYB - just someone who maybe started out on the wrong foot & if you wanted to continue to breed, someone with as much interest & enthusiasm as you seem to have probably would make a good breeder, IMHO. *If* you were willing to gather even more information and go about the process more responsibly the next time around. I don't know if that's the case, or if you wanted to breed just one litter to see the dog have pups - but if you did want to be serious about this endeavor I was willing to help or guide you in the right direction.

     I'm telling you that if you think there's a retained placenta it does require Veterinary attention not to be condescending but because if this IS left untreated, the outcome is going to be tragic. It's what we do after the bitch has her pups that defines us as a good breeder or BYB. Don't fall into the BYB trap. And don't think that because you can't find it in a book or internet article it isn't so. All the best advice I have had during my time breeding has been when I kept quiet long enough to listen to others who know far more than I probably ever will.

     BTW, have to apologize - I misunderstood & thought the sire of the litter was a different breed.

Thanks, I apolgize for snaping back, but I'm very defensive in this forum, and I felt that you came off as being very condesending.

 

As for an update - - -

 

 

Thanks, I apolgize for snaping back, but I'm very defensive in this forum, and I felt that you came off as being very condesending.

 

Heres an update-

As for sasha - I called the vets again, and they told me , again, not to worry about the placenta, to just watch her closely with her eating, if she ever become lethargic, or weak looking, I should bring her in. Also they said the placenta can come a while after birth and its possible that Hope's placenta was very small, and I missed it when it came. Shes eating her puppy food, and I'm supplementing 2 tablespoons of puppy formla (the canaster says one tablespoon per 5 pounds for pregnant and lactating dogs and shes about 11) as well as some plain yogurt, and treats that are 100% beef liver- the guy at the pet store gave it to my mom as a gift when she bought the puppy formula, because it would be really good for sasha. Sasha loves that formula more than I've ever seen her love any other food. Last night I was preparing a bottle for the pups, and I left the canaster open on the bed, I thought she was getting up to drink some water, but when I turned around she immedeatly sat up, and gave me an "i'm innocent, yet strangely guilty" kind of face, and her face, and the bed was coated in formula powder.

As for the pups-

Cocoa is doing amazingly well - he looks like a fat little roley poley. He is such a cutie, and now weighs 5.25 ounces! He's been on a .5 oz weight gain roll!

And mr. Nameless Cream boy (I'm trying really hard to find a name that suits him!) only weighs 3 oz. I called the vet, and asked them about it, and they said to watch him with the weight, but as long as he continues gaining, and doesn't drop weight, I should just make sure I supplement him. At first, I had to trick him with the bottle, he wouldn't take it unless i stuck it in his mouth while he was searching for a teet, or was up against mom. Now he takes it in my hand.

Yesterday, sasha was a bit dry- only 3 teets had milk, and 2 of them were the high teets, that were too puffy for the pups to latch on. the vet office said to keep pulling on all her teets, as her body works on a suppy/demand deal, and she will produce more in the lower teets if the pups keep trying to nurse there (or I pull on it) and after I called the vet (I noticed the lack of milk last night) I checked her again, and her milk was back. I asked her about calcium, and described Sasha's diet. she said she doesn't think calcium will be a concern for her, for small dogs it is a concern when they produce too much milk, and that causes a defficiency.

I still haven't had a good nights rest as the puppies cry whenever Sasha gets up, and she does it every 2 or so hours.

I keep a flashlight with me, and check up on the pups at least 3-4 times during the night.

Thanks again for all your concern and advice.

 

As to one teat drying up, what carefully for any sign of inflamation.  Masitits can show up very quickly.

DellaBella

Yesterday, sasha was a bit dry- only 3 teets had milk, and 2 of them were the high teets,

 

Add some apple cider vinegar to her food and water to stave off mastitis...also use warm compresses on the impacted teats while kneading them to help them let down. Watch for milk that appears curdled or stringy or off colored.....if that occurs STOP ALL NURSING from her and consult a vet. Move the pups around, do not let them use the same teats over and over...they are the most efficient means to keep her from backing up.

This is the first time I've seen this thread and Iread all the posts-

I don't see this as a huge disaster, honestly. So she's 15.  Not such a big deal. The dog world will need new young people to keep up with showing and breeding healthy dogs.

What can she do differently to make it "better" ? 

Find a mentor who shows poodles. Go to a dog show and enjoy the dogs- ask questions. 

Next get health testing on your dogs. Poodles have a lot of eye and patellar issues.  Get them CERF'd (eyes) and OFA (hips and knees).  If your tests come back good, then you *know* you have healthy dogs to breed.

And then again, next time she's in heat, only allow one or 2 ties, as random breeding over 2 weeks results in "runts" who are actually younger and less developed than their larger siblings.

I showed and bred poodles for a short time. It's fun, a lot of work, and very rewarding.

Sorry so short, but just wanted to reply!

Good luck with those boys!