my girl's whelp

    • Gold Top Dog

    Oh absolutely they are adorable.

    I've never tube fed, so I can't help one bite with that......

    • Gold Top Dog

    glenmar
    Have you weighed the pups?  How many ounches smaller is she than the others? 

    I was told that the pups were 3.0 oz, 2.75 oz, and 2.25 oz.  That makes the little girl 25% smaller than her biggest brother.

    • Gold Top Dog

    She can suckle, its just very weak. I've decided to go ahead and mostly hand raise her. I will keep her with her momma in between feedings, but I will take care of feeding her. Thankfully, because of my school, during school hours I can actually take her with me, and come to feed her during the day, when I'm not around we have incubaters we can keep her in. I'm planning for the 45 minute bus trip. Its not too bad as the bus is heated, but I plan to have a good warm towel to keep her in and such. I don't feel she's safe enough staying the day with sasha and the other pups. My friend offered to hand raise her for a week or two, but I think its better if I do it- I don't want her to become a stranger to sasha or the pups. I've been trying not to name the pups, but I can't help but name her Hope.

    From what I've read about tube feeding, its not the greatest idea because they aren't suckling and its not good for their system and such. A lot of people like to tube feed because its fast, even though its not great for the pup. I'm not afraid of the actual process of putting the tube in, we talked a bit about that while i took an intro to vet sci class, and my teacher could show me how to do it safetly. Its actually hard to get the tube into the lungs.

    I'm pretty happy the way things are going now though- last night it got scary, and I talked to my friend about how to get her breathing, and I was up every few hours to make sure she was feeding, and bottle feeding her when she wasn't, so I'm sure I could do that for a while. right now, I'm feeding her every two or so hours, (or whenever I see her failing to get a nipple) as well as holding her onto the nipple, but Sasha insist on licking her, and I can't move the pups, because if I take any way from her sight, sasha won't lay down until she gets the pup back.

    Hope is doing better now- her color is much pinker, but she is still thin.


    thanks again. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    DellaBella
    She can suckle, its just very weak. I've decided to go ahead and mostly hand raise her.

    I am glad that Hope survived her first 24 hours!   

    She really needs to nurse on Sasha as much as possible during the first few days because that is when pups get maternal antibodies.  Without that immunity Hope will be at a higher risk of getting sick before she is old enough for her puppy shots.

    DellaBella
    I've been trying not to name the pups, but I can't help but name her Hope.

    Lots of breeders give their pups names realizing, of course, that the pups' new owners will probably change the names.

    DellaBella
    From what I've read about tube feeding, its not the greatest idea because they aren't suckling and its not good for their system and such.

    Granted that tube feeding shouldn't be done just for convenience, sometimes it is the best way to get a lot of food into a struggling pup.  A weak pup can wear itself out trying to nurse and can stop feeding before it gets enough nourishment.  Tube feeding can shorten the time frame for getting such pups strong enough to nurse normally.  It can even keep especially weak pups from dying and Hope is not out of the woods yet since she doesn't have a strong suckle.

    Personally I think that I would have been tube feeding Hope all day yesterday trying to get her strong enough to suckle with her siblings while she can still get the maternal antibodies.  If she never has a full little belly like her siblings, then she is not getting enough food.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DellaBella
    She can suckle, its just very weak. I've decided to go ahead and mostly hand raise her. I will keep her with her momma in between feedings, but I will take care of feeding her. Thankfully, because of my school, during school hours I can actually take her with me, and come to feed her during the day, when I'm not around we have incubaters we can keep her in. I'm planning for the 45 minute bus trip. Its not too bad as the bus is heated, but I plan to have a good warm towel to keep her in and such. I don't feel she's safe enough staying the day with sasha and the other pups.




         Congrats on the pups - all adorable! Party!!!

         Not trying to scare you, but I would use extreme caution if you want this little runt to survive, and taking her out of the whelping area at this fragile age is going to be a recipe for disaster. Regardless of whether she'll be in a heated environment, pups are born with NO IMMUNE SYSTEM capabilities whatsoever. They recieve the first immunities from the dam's colostrum, which is very likely this pup did not get enough of. Normal, strong pups that have had enough colostrum are still delicate little things. Any slight draft, fluctuation in room temperature (pups under 3 weeks are unable to regulate their own body temp - the climate of the environment will reflect their own body temp) can run down a pup and kill them rapidly. Also consider that if you take her outside, whether or not she physically comes in contact with other dogs or places other dogs have frequented, the pup will be exposed to canine diseases if taken outside. If you have a friend with a dog who walked her own dog where another parvo carrying animal walked - guess what? You just exposed your pup to parvo, simply by touching clothing that came in contact with it.

         What I would recommend you do is get this pup in a makeshift incubator, a "puppy box". It can consist of the bottom of a small plastic crate with a heating pad underneath a soft, warm fabric. This box is kept away from the dam, and in a warm, draft free, easily cleaned envoronment. Although you may disagree with the use of them, for the first few days, this pup should be tube fed. The best thing for the pup is to get back to her dam ASAP, and in order for that to occur, she needs to regain her strength. I'm also willing to bet the farm this pup is chilled!!! Most dams will never nurse a chilled pup, and guess what - chilled pups cannot digest food properly, and will continue to fade. NO TAKING HER OUT OF THE HOUSE AND GET HER IN AN INCUBATOR NOW!!!!! She may not feel cold to the touch to you, but her dam can sense even the slightest weakness in the pups. She needs to be in an environment thats no less than 75-80 degrees - that can only be achieved with the incubator using a heating pad or a heating lamp (the pads are better, IMHO).

         I just had quite the experience with my last litter, we had four unthrifty pups (the entire litter) because they had caught a chill after birth and had not nursed soon enough. Also, the bitch had a low grade infection and despite her having been wormed when she was in heat, had a worm problem as well. This bitch also pushed the smallest pup off the litter, and it was a full week before I got her to gain significant weight, and keep it on. She turned out to be the strongest, FATTEST pig of a pup Cool Anyway, I had the dam on 250mg of amoxicillin for 10 days, and did an aggressive de worming - Panacur paste three days in a row. And for my bitch, a change of diet also assisted her in producing double the milk ...


    DellaBella

    Hope is doing better now- her color is much pinker, but she is still thin.




         I would actually be concerned about this. Becuase a pup with dark pink mucous membranes is seriously dehydrated. A quick fix for this would be to get yourself a subQ lactated ringer. Your Vet can write you a script & these can be purchased online from numerous Vet supply stores, I use primarily www.valleyvet.com or www.atozvetsupply.com The owner of the latter website, Chris, can help you with any questions you might have. If you want an excellent breeder (friendly, no flame) website, just PM me & I'll give you the link! Good Luck ...
        
    • Gold Top Dog

    HoundMusic
    They recieve the first immunities from the dam's colostrum, which is very likely this pup did not get enough of.

    How long does the dam produce colostrum?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Not toatlly sure, but I think, just like people, it's only a few days.

    • Gold Top Dog

    janet_rose

    HoundMusic
    They recieve the first immunities from the dam's colostrum, which is very likely this pup did not get enough of.

    How long does the dam produce colostrum?




         Colostrum is the first milk produced by the bitch & contains all the antibodies of the bitch. It's only within the first day or so that she'll produce this, and if pups don't nurse enough the first 24hrs, they're much more succeptable to disease. Which is the main reason why it's so important for the OP to not take the weak pup out of the house ...
    • Gold Top Dog

    Here is a great article on "Fading Puppy Syndrome".

    Puppies must get their colostrum from the bitch within their first 12 hours of life. If necessary, colostrum should be expressed from the bitch's breasts and fed by dropper to each puppy to ensure this. A puppy cannot get colostrum from another bitch with an older litter. It is only produced by the dam for a short time after she whelps, and it can only be passed through the puppies intestinal mucosa in the active form for the first few hours of life. If a puppy doesn't get colostrum, it will be much more susceptible to infections.

    This vet has two more articles "Feeding the puppy" and "To Tube or Not To Tube" - both on this page.

    OK. So, we have a sluggish or weak puppy. We put it on the bitch and it won't nurse. What to do! TUBE. NO! If the puppy does not have a good sucking reflex, it will not have any peristalsis. This means the milk we force in through the tube will just sit there. When the tube is removed, it forces itself back up the esophagus, into the trachea, and ends up in the lungs. It does not travel down through the stomach into the intestine.

      I stand corrected.  If the "To Tube or Not To Tube" quote above is correct (written by a vet), then tube feeding a pup without an adequate sucking reflex would not be advisable.  A sub-cutaneous dextrose and saline solution should be used instead.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DellaBella, how are Hope and Sasha doing this morning?  Any news re the missing placenta?

    I don't want to ignore the boys. Smile  Have they gained weight?

    • Gold Top Dog

    That quote is from the page I read on tube feeding before :)

    Originally, people thought Colostrum stoped two days after birth. Then, one day, and now many are saying 12 hours. It was 12 hours for Sasha, I could tell because I watched her closely, and yesterday morning the yellow thick sticky colostrum she had been producing turned to a thin white milk. Hope did get Colostrum, because she was suckling fine right after birth, I barely left the side of the whelping box those first few hours, making sure each puppy got colostrum.

          Well, at home, no one is there between 11:30 and 2:45, and I didn't think Hope would be safe with the other littermates, or Sasha, as I often found her on the bottom of a pile up for milk, or under Sasha's backside, because she didn't move when Sasha did.  Anyway, I had a sleepless night, I was awake at least twice every hour, Hope was at her weakest. I couldn't get her to drink any formula, I put her down with her litter, and I knew she wouldn't make it.

    Her brothers were squirming around, Crawling on their bellies, but Hope laid curled up, moving only her forelegs up and down. I moved the boys, and held down sasha, and put her up to a teet, she didn't latch on, so I put the teet in her mouth. She lay with the teet in her mouth and didn't suck. I expressed some milk, and dabbed it at her lips, she slightly opened her mouth, and then nothing. I knew she wouldn't make it. There was no progress at about 4:45, and when I awoke to my alarm at 5:30, I reached for her, she was warm. I picked her up, and saw she wasn't breathing. WIth one hand I stimulated her, rubbing the center of her ribs with the ball of my finger, and blowing some air in her face. I opened her mouth and pulled her tounge down from the roof of her mouth, so she could breathe. I started the dryer, and took out a pair of pajama pants a minute later, It was really warm, and I laid her in it, and continued to stimulate her. Sasha didn't realize what was happening, she was asleep when I found Hope. she kept running between me and her pups, begging for Hope. I remember reading about shocking a puppy's system as a last resort, by alternating the pup in cold and hot water. The temperature change would shock her body into taking a breath. It said to fill two bowls, and submerge the pup up to its neck, or to alternate the temps on the tap. I tried it, and for a second I thought it was working, but it failed.

    I gave up at 6:05. I talked to my friend over the phone, but there was nothing she could do.

    I was wondering wheather I should show Sasha the pup or not, she was crying for it. I decided it would be best for her to know what happened. Having her pup dissapear and never come back would be worse then knowing it had died. At least she would know. I brought it to her, and held it to her face, She licked it for a second, and then laid her head on my palm next to it. She wimpered a little, licked it a little more, and then went back to tending her pups.

    I tried really  hard not to get my hopes up- I knew things were grim. She would get better, then get worse again. It wasn't a surprise, but of course, its still really sad. My dad tried to console me, telling me for every first litter, there is always a runt, and it always dies. The problem must have started in the womb. When she came, her cord was much thinner then the other pups. She was also the last out, so she was pushed farther up. from the womb, she wasn't getting enough nourishment to last on the outside.

     

    The boys, however, are thriving. I haven't paid too much attention to them, other then making sure they were doing okay. I was examining them closely, and they really are doing great. we have a scale that weighs up to 31 ounces, at birth The black boy (whos coat seems more of a dark choclately color, I call him Cocoa) weighed 3 ounces, The cream boy (whom I can't think of a good name for) weighed 2.75 ounces, and little hope weighed 2.25 ounces.

    These weights however, are off a little, as I really wasn't sure how to work the scale yet.

    They are pretty acurate though as I was off by .5 ounces, and I added .5 to the weight I read on the scale to get the above weights.

    Now, the pups are very hard to weigh as they keep squirming, but Cocoa is roughly 3.75-4 ounces, and the cream boy is about 3 oz.

    He hasn't gained as much as cocoa, so when it looks like Cocoa is hogging the milk, I'll take him off and give the cream boy some alone time. I think he needs a good name as well.

         Hope's death is extremely disheartening, but I expected to lose a runt since I first started thinking about the litter coming. I knew there would be one or two, and if there were more, they would be very weak. I knew it, but it doesn't make it any easier.

    I'm staying home from school today, partially because I wouldn't be able to get ready in time to catch the bus, so I told my friend to have the bus skip my stop, partially because sasha freaks out whenever I leave her side (she's got to get over that) and partially because I want a little time to get over Hope.

    It was really weird- I had the TV on a channel that plays music videos every once in a while, and as I was trying to revive Hope, a song was playing with the main lyrics being "steady hands, just take the wheel"

    Anyway- I have to focus more on Sasha and the pups.

    As for the case of the missing placenta- I called three different vets to make sure, and they all told me the same exact thing.

    The placenta will most likely liquify and be reobsorbed into the body, or it can take up to two days to be delivered. As long as Sasha is alert, and not lethargic or weak, and has no fever, then I have nothing to worry about. If she does become sick looking, then she needs to come in for a clean out.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I am so sorry about Hope.  Now she is a little angel watching over her brothers. 

    DellaBella
    That quote is from the page I read on tube feeding before :)

    Embarrassed  I hadn't read that one before.  Sorry I tried to steer you wrong.  I didn't realize that you couldn't actually get the tube into the pup's stomach like you can for a human baby.

    Is there some reason that you didn't try the sub-q fluids recommended in that article?  I know that in some areas finding a cooperative vet on a weekend can be a serious problem.

    DellaBella
    I was wondering wheather I should show Sasha the pup or not, she was crying for it. I decided it would be best for her to know what happened.

    I think that you definitely made the right decision!  It was the only way you could "tell" her that Hope was gone.

    DellaBella
    My dad tried to console me, telling me for every first litter, there is always a runt, and it always dies.

    I am not trying make you feel worse, but I don't believe this.  Not every first litter has a runt and not all runts die.

    DellaBella
    He hasn't gained as much as cocoa, so when it looks like Cocoa is hogging the milk, I'll take him off and give the cream boy some alone time. I think he needs a good name as well.

    Why not call him Cream?

    DellaBella
    The placenta will most likely liquify and be reobsorbed into the body, or it can take up to two days to be delivered.

    I will keep my fingers crossed!!  I would be so worried I would be taking her temperature every few hours. Stick out tongue  A shot of oxytocin (for the dam, of course) would required to calm me.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I  didn't get the shot because here, all vets close at 1pm on saturday and don't open until monday morning except emergency vets, and the closest one is over an hour away from me. I called two emergency vets, and my old vet's office in Florida to ask about the Placenta.

     I'm watching Sasha like a hawk, and she's doing great. She's eating a lot, and is jumping up and barking like mad at any sign of any noise.

    I know theres not always a runt, and the runt doesn't always die, my dad just tried to console me. He grew up on a small community farm, and he always uses pigs as an example when talking about the pups :)

    You can tell hes trying to be really nice- at first he told me I had to clean the kitchen (my chore If I miss the bus) and then he cleaned it for me, and bought me a big cinnamun muffin, and buried Hope for me in the garden, I would have prefered to be there, but he thought I didn't want to be there. I'm okay with it though- he's trying.

    I knew this would happen all along- especially when I saw that thin umbilical cord, and my fears were confirmed when she wouldn't suckle, and laid curled up, rather then squirm on her belly like her brothers. Hope had a small head, and was a dark violet color, with little fur. I described her to one of my friends as being the size of a gerbil, with the appearence of a baby gerbil (reddish and pretty much hairless) Hope had fur, it was just very thin.

    Hope was ina box on the washer, and I had sasha in my arms. She spoted Hope, and cried and yelped toward her, I brought her over, she licked Hope, wimpered some more, and then turned to check on the boys whom were in my hand.

    I'm going to go through a list of names to find one for this boy...when it comes to names, I hear them, and I wait for one to just click. I'm very picky about names, which is probably why this poor boy has none yet!
    My mom named Sasha, and when it came time to name shadow, my family got tired of not having a name after three hours of debating, and finally, we picked his name out of a hat...

    Anyway- He's not as big as Cocoa, so I'm going to go ahead and supplement him with a bit of formula, and try to get him as much of mommas milk as possible. The formula can says its good for pregnant and lactating bitches, and sasha absolutely LOVES it, so I'm going to give plenty to her as well.

    We already had a home for Hope and all. My mom's supervisor at work recently lost her girl, whom she's had for several years as I understand it, my mom tells me she was really upset at work and was looking for a new girl. She told my mom she really wanted Hope, she loves poodles and really wants a girl. we have a few good possible homes for these boys - I guess we should start figuring out which home would be the best. I would prefer someone who I personally know well, and lives near by. . .

    Well, Thanks again for all your advice and concern.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DellaBella
    I guess we should start figuring out which home would be the best. I would prefer someone who I personally know well, and lives near by. . .

    Actually I would wait a while.  A pup should be matched to the new owner and you don't yet know the personalities of the pups.  For instance, if a pup is highly dominant, you want to place him with someone who will consistently do an NILIF program.  If a pup is very shy and skittish, a home with children might not be a good idea.  Etc., etc.

    Please give us more pictures as the boys grow!

    • Gold Top Dog

    I definetly will. :)


    The boys are super cute, and Cocoa really is so big and strong.

    The other boy doesn't like the bottle, so I'll just have to watch him and make sure Cocoa isn't hogging it all. Cocoa doesn't like the bottle either, so I'm going to use the milk to supplement sasha (which will in turn supplement the boys) she would eat the entire can of it if I let her. I left the can open this morning in the rush, and I forgot about it, and found sasha munching on some of the powder. She'll take it in any form she can get it!

    Cocoa really is a big cry baby, she sure has a great pair of lungs. he screams whenever hes not right up against a teet, wheather hes nursing or not, and poor Sasha looses her mind, when the pups aren't under her, Cocoa is screaming, and they are both going in seperate directions, poor girl doesn't know what to do with herself. She wants to get them both in together, so she tries to pick them both up at the same time, and she can't, so she starts crying, and trying to scratch the pups together.