Professional Breeders

HoundMusic

Chuffy

So, If I'm looking for a puppy, I want one at about 8 or 10 weeks old.  Plus, I want to know his breeder beforehand.  I want to build up a relationship with them.  I want to know I can feel comfortable buying from them, that they will continue with after-sale advice and take the pup back if needed, etc etc.  Then I'd like to visit the pups before "mine" comes home with me.  That's seems like A LOT to achieve in 8-10 weeks.

     From your posts it seems to me that you understand very little about what it takes to actually be a breeder. Rule number one is you need to have a strong stomach/thick skin, and rule #2 is leave the control issues at the door. I notice much of the AR mindset is weaved around control issues - everyone has live up to a certain (near impossible) standard or they are not an ethical breeder, worthy pet owner, etc.

 

How many times are you going to imply I'm some kind of AR freak?  Are you TRYING to bait me?  OK, let's get back to being civil and playing nice.  Who wrote the Breed Standards?  Are they AR activists?  Control freaks?  No.  If your puppies don't live up to the Standard 100%, does that make you a rubbish breeder?  No.  It's just an IDEAL.  You just want to check as many of the boxes as possible.  Can you try to look at MY expectations in this light?

HoundMusic

and let me tell you, unless you are quite the prestegiouis breeder, you do not have buyers banging your door down! I know breeders who've been breeding show champion dogs for 15+ years or much longer in some cases, and oft times, they do not have a waiting list, just interest. Interest does not sell pups.

 

Erm. see below: 

I think there is a difference between: "Woo hoo! LOADS of people want dal puppies, we could make a fortune! Yay!"  and "I really want Spot to have a litter, so I'm pleased to have some people who are interested that could provide really good homes for them".

I would say it's IDEAL to have homes lined up before breeding (or "interest" at the very least).  Not always possible, I'll grant you, but it's something I hope breeders do at least try to do.  I'd like to draw your attention to where I have said "*I* would not want to breed homeless puppies".  Am I making ANY sense at all?

HoundMusic

Now, while I have refused many sales and screen my buyers thoroughly, I do NOT wait until I have a waiting list to breed and never intend to operate in such a manner.

 

OK, I see what you are saying.  But if you know you are going to breed a litter, do you try to see if there is anyone who might be interested?  I am sure I didn't say it was necessary to WAIT. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

HoundMusic

The successful ones I do know breed because THEY want a pup and the buyers come later.

First of all, I'd be interested to know how you define "successful"?  I wonder, does it mean they make a profit, make a large profit, breed lots of champions, succeed in working trials...?  As I said, when I am shopping for a puppy I do want to know the breeder beforehand.  That's just my preference.  I know there are quite a few others who also like to puppy-shop this way, rather than see an ad, view the litter, pay, take pup home.  Regardless of whether not having those homes lined up is right or wrong, the way I like to do it means that I'm just probably not going to buy from someone who sorts out the buyers after the litter is born.

HoundMusic

To people who I've spoken to or otherwise had lengthy correspondence with and we both have to just, at one point, TRUST each other.

Yes, I'll agree there is a lot of trust involved.  A LOT.  A lot of shelters we went to didn't trust US to have a puppy from them and it seemed to ludicrous to us, because we knew we could provide a good home.  And regardless of how much or little effort you expend in screening, you can still get it wrong and if you were to beat yourself up over that you'd never let a single one go.

HoundMusic

But this IS a business, even if you breed one litter every 10 years, and finding homes is a business transaction, not a quest to make a forever buddy for myself.

I didn't suggest it was about making a forever buddy for yourself.  It's not about YOU or your buyers.  It's about the pup you're selling.   I would hope you have some interest in where that puppy ends up, what happens to him.  Oh no, sorry, it's a BUSINESS.  That comes first.  Right.  Sorry, I was with you right up to that last condescending remark.  We are clearly on different planets with this one and there's no point discussing it further.

Chuffy

I would say it's IDEAL to have homes lined up before breeding (or "interest" at the very least).  Not always possible, I'll grant you, but it's something I hope breeders do at least try to do.  I'd like to draw your attention to where I have said "*I* would not want to breed homeless puppies".  Am I making ANY sense at all?

     I don't know where you're getting this notion of breeding "homeless puppies" from, but if you're attemptimg to imply that a litter bred before there is interest or homes lined up will somehow end up not ever being sold ... well you are WAY off base. As I mentioned, I just had a litter of pups who were not spoken for before they were born. No interest either, which is not unusual, because most pet homes want to SEE the pups before contacting the breeder about them. They are all sold now, and to great homes, to knowledgable people. If I had 10 pups, it would take longer to sell them, of course, but because I do not have interest in the litter before the pups are even born in no way, shape or form means someone is breeding puppies that are likely to end up homeless. I've kept on pups that never turned out the way I hoped & sold them at 5-6 months old. I know many, if not most show breeders who will keep back several hopeful pups then sell them at 4+ months old if they don't turn out, or just not even begin to sell the litter until they are 12 weeks old. So telling me that having no buyers before a litter is bred is not ideal for the pups is just rhetoric coming from someone who has no intimate knowledge of the breeding process.

 

Chuffy

I didn't suggest it was about making a forever buddy for yourself.  It's not about YOU or your buyers.  It's about the pup you're selling.   I would hope you have some interest in where that puppy ends up, what happens to him.  Oh no, sorry, it's a BUSINESS.  That comes first.  Right.  Sorry, I was with you right up to that last condescending remark.  We are clearly on different planets with this one and there's no point discussing it further.

     Yeah, it IS about my buyers. They come to me looking for a well bred pup and that is a service I provide to them. How does not trying to find someone who will be great friends with me equate to not trying to find a good, responsible home for the pup? I responded to your question about the length of the process, and your mentioning of how it would take much longer than 8-10 weeks to befriend the buyer, etc., so therefore in order to breed responsibly, one would have to have homes lined up beforehand. Seems that every time I offer a rebuttal to your questions, your stance changes slightly. I love a good debate, where both parties attempt to argue their points, but it seems you're not really debating ... you're certainly against breeding for profit or professional breeders and are trying desperately to make me & other breeders that aren't exactly like your sister's breeder who only have one litter every few years, appear to be disreputable in some way. Hence the reference to me not caring where the puppy ends up! ROFLMAO!!! That's a gut buster! First, I have not said anything that would insinuate I couldn't care less where my pups ended up. On the contrary, I am sure I've mentioned that I've refused numerous sales, about my application, extensive interviewing of prospective families ... have I also mentioned my mandatory s/n contracts for pet pups, my take back clause (why would I offer that if I didn't care? wouldn't it be so much easier to wash my hands of the problem?), my health guarantee, etc. Secondly, I find the remark that I do not have any interest in where my pups end up because I said breeding was a business, irregardless of how few or many litters you breed, to be outright ridiculous. I don't see a need to defend myself on that issue because it is just so outlandish.

I don't know, the two professional breeders I know really don't consider breeding to be a "business" for them.  They barely break even after all is said and done. 

AgileGSD

The breed I breed does not often end up in shelters or rescues. In AKC's stats they have ranged between 100-122, out of 157 breeds in popularity in the past ten years. In 2006 there were only 266 registered - hardly enough to cause an "overpopulation". At a point, there "needs" to be "your next litter" of low number breeds or those breeds will disappear. Besides think the world will always need litters of well bred, sound purebred puppies :)

I understand where you are coming from with reference to breed popularity.  My breed is usually in the 140-150 out of 157 breeds in popularity.  I do not believe that there is ever a true need for "your next litter" so that a breed doesn't die out.  Maybe a line within that breed might die out, but not that breed.  I have one of the last litters from within a long established line in my breed.  The last litter were all dogs that should have been culled because they were malformed, and the two survivors need constant medical care (both remained with the breeder.)  

Is the breed in danger of dying because one line disappeared? Hardly.  I think there is a constant supply of maybe 5 litters, sometimes 6 or 7 each year.  Most pups go into show homes, and are spoken for months before the breeding ever occurs. 

Our rescue program scours petfinder daily and investigates every report of a PH in a shelter.  If anyone is in the area, we (yes me too) visit the dog to determine whether the dog is indeed a PH.  If the dog is a Cirneco, we contact the Cirneco Rescue and work with them.  If the dog is a PH then we do whatever it takes to pull the dog out and get the dog back to his/her breeder.  

When a PH is lost or has run away, we work with local authorities and coordinate searches and flood the local media.   

At our National Specialties, and Regional Specialties, we hold Rescue Raffles-which raise thousands of dollars from the raffling of donated items.   

One of the breeders from within my breed made a great post on our board.  She mentioned the "breeding fund."  What she did, before she ever bred, was to figure out a worst case scenario financially, for her first litter.   When she had that money saved, she then began looking for the appropriate sire.  All of her expenses came out of that fund and her money from puppy sales went to replenish that fund-which is also the "emergency dog fund."  That's the cycle that she uses.  I'm simplifying the idea quite a bit, but that's the gist of how she does it.  Judging by the replies she got, that's the way most of the breeders from within my breed do it.

I'm very lucky to be involved with dogs from within my breed, even further the people from within this breed love them dearly.  Our rescue chairperson has 16 of them at home, at last count, as she's socializing them and fostering them for eventual homes.  This is typical within the Pharaoh Hound community.

Within our community though, there have been a few unscrupulous breeders.  Breeders that don't chip, don't carefully screen, and don't track their dogs.  Those dogs, when they are lost, abandoned, or turned in to shelters are rescued with the same gusto that others are.

Even so, breeding that next litter is not as important for the survival of the breed as it is for the survival of the line. 

Xerxes

I understand where you are coming from with reference to breed popularity.  My breed is usually in the 140-150 out of 157 breeds in popularity.  I do not believe that there is ever a true need for "your next litter" so that a breed doesn't die out.  Maybe a line within that breed might die out, but not that breed.  I have one of the last litters from within a long established line in my breed.

 

But if all breeders of a rare breed thought this way, the breed would die out eventually.  The registration numbers for many rare breeds are not going up, in fact many are going down.  This is the case with Manchester Terriers, a breed that I own.  There were only 400 or so registered last year in the whole country, and there certainly was no shortage of homes for the pups, in fact there are usually waiting lists.  And no, the breeders do not have homes lined up before the pups are born.

jenns

Xerxes

I understand where you are coming from with reference to breed popularity.  My breed is usually in the 140-150 out of 157 breeds in popularity.  I do not believe that there is ever a true need for "your next litter" so that a breed doesn't die out.  Maybe a line within that breed might die out, but not that breed.  I have one of the last litters from within a long established line in my breed.

 

But if all breeders of a rare breed thought this way, the breed would die out eventually.  The registration numbers for many rare breeds are not going up, in fact many are going down.  This is the case with Manchester Terriers, a breed that I own.  There were only 400 or so registered last year in the whole country, and there certainly was no shortage of homes for the pups, in fact there are usually waiting lists.  And no, the breeders do not have homes lined up before the pups are born.

     Exactly! Not only that, but even if the breed itself did not die out, once you begin to loose certain lines, especially within a rarer breed, your breed may as well be gone. Once genetic diversity fizzles out in a purebred genepool, you run the very real risk of bottlenecks - that's when the genetic mutations & once recessive health issues come to the surface - and can be near impossible to breed out. Take Basenjis, for example. Not a rare breed by any stretch, but I believe it was pyruvate kinase (someone correct me if I'm worng on which disease it was) that nearly wiped out all viable breeding stock. In that instance, AKC was forced to open it's studbooks to allow breeders to gain genetic diversity. Loose enough good lines, and that's what occurs, unfortunately.

Xerxes

I understand where you are coming from with reference to breed popularity.  My breed is usually in the 140-150 out of 157 breeds in popularity.  I do not believe that there is ever a true need for "your next litter" so that a breed doesn't die out.  Maybe a line within that breed might die out, but not that breed. 

Is the breed in danger of dying because one line disappeared? Hardly.  I think there is a constant supply of maybe 5 litters, sometimes 6 or 7 each year.  Most pups go into show homes, and are spoken for months before the breeding ever occurs. 

 At least one person considered an expert on breeding and genetics disagrees with you on that - your breed and mine are on his list of 44 breeds in danger of extinction/losing diversity due to falling numbers. Check out article The Gathering Storm - last articles on the page where our breeds are listed as being in danger of loss of genetic diversity/ability to maintain breed health. Like someone said, even if they don't become extinct this would be a HUGE problem.

http://breedingbetterdogs.com/articles.html

  Do you believe fewer and fewer litters can be bred in breeds with already low numbers without having any effect on the breed as a whole? That it is no big deal if lines die out within low number breeds?  I don't know what all the answers are but it isn't reasonable to believe that the falling numbers won't have a bad impact on an already low number breed. FWIW if that estimate is right there has been a huge drop in your breed's population, even in the past few years because the chart lists about 20 litters a year up until 2001 I believe.

Chuffy

I would say it's IDEAL to have homes lined up before breeding (or "interest" at the very least).  Not always possible, I'll grant you, but it's something I hope breeders do at least try to do.  I'd like to draw your attention to where I have said "*I* would not want to breed homeless puppies".  Am I making ANY sense at all?

 Who is breeding homeless puppies? I don't know any breeder in my breed who kept puppies their entire lives because there just weren't homes for them. Don't know any people who have well bred GSDs who have had to either. Certainly don't know any who have dumped puppies at the shelter. So sorry no, not making any sense. It is as though you have a superstition about needing homes prior to puppies being born because it is hard to place puppies over 10 weeks old, there will be no room for them, they will never be sold, you'll never be able to know if a buyer is a good home, you'll have to price them cheap just so someone will impluse buy them, bad things will happen (might they might into pumpkins? I always joke that the puppies get here cause I feed the dogs after midnite ;)). 

 Some working breeders sell puppies at 7 weeks old to new homes per many well known trainer's ideas that 7 weeks is the ideal age for imprinting. Other breeders feel it is better not to place puppies until 10 weeks or older. A lot of small dog breeders wouldn't dream of sending home a puppy under 12 weeks old. Some breeders keep waiting lists for a year or more of interested owners. Some breeders simply refer to breeders with current or on the way litter, if they have nothing coming up. Often as you have more litters, it gets easier to place puppies simply because likely at least some of the owners of previous puppies will want another and be willing to wait for a relative of their's. Owners all have their preference too, as I already mentioned. Some want a puppy ASAP to start training, socializing and bonding with. Others prefer puppies 12 weeks or older because they are started on training and much easier to housetrain (no 3am trips outside in the rain). And than there are people who want their dogs even older, so much of the "hard stuff" is done and they can get on with the fun stuff. The truth is none of those situations are right or wrong, just personal preference of breeders and owners.

Chuffy

I can see what you are saying and I'm not criticising you for it at all.  If you had bred the litter with no homes lined up at all, particularly if "your" breed was one that typically had large litters, THEN I might want to criticise.  I'm sure I said before that if you are able to care for them and sell them when they are older then that's fine.  But my question was, is that not more difficult? 

 And who would you be to criticize me? Do you really know anything about me? About my dogs? You don't breed. Yet you feel that you have some authority to sit behind your computer screen and look down on me? This is the problem all breeders are facing and I do blame years of AR propaganda for it - a breeder can't say anything without someone wanting to twist it so that it seems like the breeder is some how doing wrong by the dogs or are irresponsible in some way. It doesn't matter how good they are to their dogs, how careful they are with breeding/placement or the quality of dogs produced - they can never be quite good enough.

 Yep my breed has larger litters - 6-10 usually, mine have been 6,7 and 8. If it was more difficult for me having to keep them longer or not really doesn't concern anyone but me and my family. We actually enjoyed them quite a lot. The last three we ended up with were my favorite male, my pick female and my husband's overall favorite. The male I was growing out before I let him go to a pet home, he could have been sold earlier and i turned a couple pet homes down for him. The other girl, just wasn't in a huge rush to sell her. And the pick female I planned on keeping and she is still here. The homes they ended up going to have been totally happy and really are two of my best pet homes, I'm glad that I had the puppies for them when they were looking.

I'm so glad I came across this thread, mostly because I have wanted to get into breeding for ages and ages and always believed people when they said that you could never make a profit if you did things correctly. I always swore that I'd breed only for the love of dogs and never do anything unethical. I want to do conformation, agility, flyball, therapy, search and rescue, and also donate puppies to be assistance dogs. I'm in no way getting into this for the money.

So, that brings me to the point I'm at now where I am nearing my goal. Within the next year or so, I will be buying my first breeding dog. I've been researching for years and have decided that soon I will be ready because I will have the time and the space. I've been researching what it takes to raise a breeding dog to championship level and what it takes to achieve my goals in other areas, and of course, in all of this I have to be mindful of how much things cost simply because I have a finite amount of money and I have to be consciencious of that or I'll go broke.

What I have found has really surprised me. First of all, when someone like me, who is just starting out, tries to find information on breeding, they are met with a lot of hostility. I am very careful to mention my plans to anyone on a message board simply because people have a tendency to flame you just for aspiring to breeding dogs. Secondly, I find it frustrating that when I come on a forum and ask for dog breeding related information, all I get sent are these anti-breeding propoganda sites that explain why I'm a complete moron and a horrible person for wanting to breed my dog. Not helpful in the least.

Now, speaking of these anti-breeding propoganda sites, I was surprised to find that most of them are full of flat out lies. A popular feature is to show a breakdown of breeding expenses to demonstrate why you can't make a profit off a litter. For the longest time, I took these estimates as fact, but when I actually looked into things myself, I found that these website were grossly overestimating how much things cost. For instance, I find it alarming that most anti-breeding people will insist that a CERF test costs $100+ and PennHip tests cost $250+. When I actually looked into getting these tests done for myself I found that they cost more in the range of $30 and $60, respectively. That's just one example. Another is the cost estimate for putting a championship on a dog. Estimates for this must include a week-long vacation for every show attended and apparently, it takes no less than 10-15 shows to put a championship on a dog. In talking to actual breeders about how many shows it takes to reach a championship, I found the estimates more in the range of 3-5 shows. It costs about $60 to enter a show and from where I live, I can drive to three different cities and back in the same day, all of which have numerous dog shows in all venues. Again, the estimates on the anti-breeding sites are grossly inflated.

Okay, so my point is, I'm not interested in dog breeding for the money because I was dead set on it well before I knew there was ethical profit to be made. Really, if I make any profit, it'll just be icing on the cake and will help me obtain my goals faster. I have no intention of living off dog breeding profits, I'm just rather shocked and appalled that anti-breeding propoganda is so erroneous and that people just jump on the bandwagon with their pitchforks and cut down anyone who is evil enough to admit that they make money off their dogs.

ANY business or money-making venture has a right way and a wrong way to do it. There are ethics involved in ANYTHING you do. You can say that dogs aren't sneakers and TVs all you want, and that's true, but even with sneakers and TVs, there is a potential to do harm. How about making children work in sweatshops to make your sneakers for you? How about manufacturing TVs in such a way that it pollutes the environment? No one would ever say that there shouldn't be any more shoe manufacturers because there are some that are exploitative and immoral because in that case, people have enough sense to distinguish between the industry as a whole and the individual corporation. The same should apply to dog breeders. It's not a matter of "if you have X number of dogs" or "if you make X amount of profit" you're evil, it's how you make that profit and how you produce those dogs that count.

AgileGSD

 At least one person considered an expert on breeding and genetics disagrees with you on that - your breed and mine are on his list of 44 breeds in danger of extinction/losing diversity due to falling numbers

 

Those numbers are based upon AKC registry numbers.  At this point in time there are more Pharaoh Hounds (kelb tal fenek) than there have been historically.  They are being bred in the UK, USA, and other European countries.  The breeders here regularly import and export puppies.  We also have, when possible, gotten fresh blood from Malta-where the majority of the dogs live and have lived with a smaller breeding population than before.

 Like I said, I understand the point, but I don't necessarily agree with it. 

To note, currently there are around 25,000 Pharaoh hounds in the world.  Only1500 or so live in the continental US. 

AgileGSD

Do you believe fewer and fewer litters can be bred in breeds with already low numbers without having any effect on the breed as a whole?

 

Provided that the reason for those litters is to promote genetic diversity and that those breeders are not over using a particular brood bitch or stud.

You also have to consider that the majority of my breed's dogs are still intact and older studs breeding to younger bitches is not uncommon, nor is importing frozen semen for AI.   

With that said do I wish for more and more of these dogs to be bred?  Hardly.  In another 5 or 6 generations these dogs will probably be dumbed down enough for most owners.  Since there is not a large demand for these dogs, there is no impetus for the breeders to be anything less than picky as to which dog is stud to which bitch.  Add a demand and you'd likely see much poorer quality dogs being bred from within an even smaller gene pool.  (Basically within a single line.)

At this point there are no hereditary diseases within the breed-but testing is still being done for OFA and CERF, which I find admirable. 

What I do not like is that the AKC trend is to make these dogs larger.  These dogs cannot perform their original function at a larger size.  So while I agree that within the AKC low litter registrations can cause a change within the breed, there is no way that 6% of a breed could have a dying out effect upon the 94% of that breed.

 

rolenta

That's just one example. Another is the cost estimate for putting a championship on a dog. Estimates for this must include a week-long vacation for every show attended and apparently, it takes no less than 10-15 shows to put a championship on a dog. In talking to actual breeders about how many shows it takes to reach a championship, I found the estimates more in the range of 3-5 shows.

 

I'm in no way an anti-breeding propagandist, but to think that each and every dog can get a championship in 3-5 shows is a bit, well, unrealistic.  My dog's breeder has the top dog in our breed at this point, he earned his championship in 8 or 9 shows.  And she's very well known to the judges and very careful as to which judges she shows under, as she knows what each of them like.

Regardless, if you've never shown before and want to put a title on your dog, hire a professional handler-that's your best bet to get a Ch. as quickly as possible. 

rolenta

I can drive to three different cities and back in the same day, all of which have numerous dog shows in all venues

 

But you don't get the ringtimes until the Friday when you arrive at the venue.  That's a huge issue if you've entered into different shows on the same day.  You also have to figure out how many dogs/bitches you need for a major, and even then all dogs entered don't always make it to the ring-and you don't get points for them if they aren't in the ring.  (In some breeds you only need 4 for a major, in others the numbers can be quite astounding.)

 

rolenta

In talking to actual breeders about how many shows it takes to reach a championship, I found the estimates more in the range of 3-5 shows.

I dont know what breed these breeders that you have talked to have, but I can tell you a CH in 3-5 shows is a rarity, 10-15 shows is pretty rare too. I can list numbers of people who have shown their dogs at 30+ shows and still no CH. I have a beautiful Beagle bitch that has been entered 5 weekends (about 10 shows) and only has 3 points. I show a bitch that was Best In Sweepstakes at the Nationals. She is almost 2 and has 6 points, no majors and I cant even count the number of shows she has been at. Plan on 10+ shows to get a CH, esp if you are new to showing.

lcbryson

I dont know what breed these breeders that you have talked to have, but I can tell you a CH in 3-5 shows is a rarity, 10-15 shows is pretty rare too. I can list numbers of people who have shown their dogs at 30+ shows and still no CH. I have a beautiful Beagle bitch that has been entered 5 weekends (about 10 shows) and only has 3 points. I show a bitch that was Best In Sweepstakes at the Nationals. She is almost 2 and has 6 points, no majors and I cant even count the number of shows she has been at. Plan on 10+ shows to get a CH, esp if you are new to showing.

 ITA it is not common to see dogs finish in AKC so quickly and I certainly haven't had that kind of success. AKC conformation showing can be a rather pricey hobby! I know in UKC and rare breed associations it is much more common for dogs to finish faster, so 3 -5 shows could be within the norm. Right now I have a male who has needed just three singles for over a year - ugh!

lcbryson

I dont know what breed these breeders that you have talked to have, but I can tell you a CH in 3-5 shows is a rarity, 10-15 shows is pretty rare too. I can list numbers of people who have shown their dogs at 30+ shows and still no CH. I have a beautiful Beagle bitch that has been entered 5 weekends (about 10 shows) and only has 3 points. I show a bitch that was Best In Sweepstakes at the Nationals. She is almost 2 and has 6 points, no majors and I cant even count the number of shows she has been at. Plan on 10+ shows to get a CH, esp if you are new to showing.

 ITA it is not common to see dogs finish in AKC so quickly and I certainly haven't had that kind of success. AKC conformation showing can be a rather pricey hobby! I know in UKC and rare breed associations it is much more common for dogs to finish faster, so 3 -5 shows could be within the norm. Right now I have a male who has needed just three singles for over a year - ugh!