Professional Breeders

In grad school we studied how drug cartels in Latin America act as a force for stability for a troubled and economically challenged region.  They do a lot of good, on a national level, within local communities, and on personal levels caring for families and the oppressed.

Knowing this does not instill in me any wish to ally myself with them, emulate their methods, or take any of their money for any cause - even goals that are right and just and which we share. 

     You cannot compare illegal drugs that take or destroy the lives of millions of people to someone commercially raising dogs!!! And sorry, but they opress the masses, these people who live in the drug saturated villages are ruled by fear & torn between having food and living under the tyrannical rule of the dealers. Come on @@

     I think the author's point was that how some breeders are touting the "high & mightiness" of AKC, when in fact, the registry itself could not even exist without other breeders besides those who raise dogs only for show purrposes. Also believe the author had that lightbulb moment wherein she realized that everyone who sets to go about it responsibly has the right to breed, it's not a privelage set aside for the few "elite". And that as breeders, we all should put aside our differences & realize we have more in common than we think. So let's have those common factors unite us, because the professional breeders are the ones and the ONLY ones really putting up a stink and fighting the anti pet/animal rights legislation. That was the "theme" of the article - not let's all open up a commercial kennel. Sorry, but if the attitude some AKC show breeders have continues to prevail, the attitude that they're somehow better becuase they don't make a profit on their litters, well, come 10-15 years time, and I doub't most of us who are breeders today will still be able to breed then.

    

HoundMusic

You cannot compare illegal drugs that take or destroy the lives of millions of people to someone commercially raising dogs!!!

 

Sure you can...if one wishes...it's an opinion as valid as any other here, surely?

FWIW, I agree with Becca, the comparison is indeed apt, given the amount of dogs suffering in those commercial kennels...and the amount of $$ that changes hands.

They aren't the worst problem American faces...and at times we need to include them when fighting legislation...but I certainly hope you aren't looking to minimize the harm they do to dogs, from a big picture perspective.

I certainly may have no other recourse, than to work alongside them to defeat poorly thought out, emotionally based breeder aimed, legislation...but I certainly will not ever condone what they do to their "stock". Ever.

They aren't the worst problem American faces...and at times we need to include them when fighting legislation...but I certainly hope you aren't looking to minimize the harm they do to dogs, from a big picture perspective.

 

Indeed.  There is a difference between "happening" to be on the same side, and pooling resources.  I simply couldn't accept help from such people no matter how well dressed they are, well spoken, or blue ribboned.  The fact is that much animal suffering redounds to their activities. 

There are (I believe) very few, if any, forces of pure undulterated evil in the world (nor are there any earthly forces of unmixed good).  We cannot control the choices made by people like those in the pet industry.  We can, however, speak out against them and ensure that our message is not clouded with benefit gained from association with the institutions against which we are standing.

At the point at which we have no other recourse than to do so - it would be at that time that I would re-examine the direction of our message.  

rwbeagles

HoundMusic

You cannot compare illegal drugs that take or destroy the lives of millions of people to someone commercially raising dogs!!!

 

Sure you can...if one wishes...it's an opinion as valid as any other here, surely?

FWIW, I agree with Becca, the comparison is indeed apt, given the amount of dogs suffering in those commercial kennels...and the amount of $$ that changes hands.

     Hmmm, I don't see the correlation between illegal drugs and professional dog breeding. Not referring to puppy mills, and neither was the article. I don't know of any professional/commercial breeder who condones the illegal breeding operations that churn out pups, keep the animals in poor conditions, and promote suffering and neglect. Professional breeders and puppy mills are not one in the same. I still do not make the connection between illegal drug dealers and puppy mills, regardless of how terribly a miller's dogs are neglected. They are doing nothing, absolutely less than nothing for the image of breeding, for the afformentioned anti AR legislation, nor do they help maintain any regsitries, especially not the AKC. Professional breeders are practically certified with all the education they are REQUIRED to have to maintain their license. Puppy mills operate in slovenly conditions, and 95% of the time are not even licensed, as commercial breeders must be, by law. So, I doubt, highly doubt if the dogs of commercial breeders are "suffering" just because they're being bred! It doesn't make sense. Unhealthy, suffering, neglected dogs wouldn't even make them any money.

     Anyway, was curious as to what other breeders actually thought of the basic points of this article. Such as APRI being the one funding the legislatiors who allow us all the rights to breed? And that the professionals are required to have more ongoing education than "elite" breeders, judges, etc. Any thoughts?

HoundMusic

. Professional breeders and puppy mills are not one in the same. I

To you.

Your view is certainly not everyone's, nor is mine quite likely...I think that'd be a fair statement? Would you agree that the terms above may be open to interpretation by each person reading?

 

Not referring to puppy mills, and neither was the article. I don't know of any professional/commercial breeder who condones the illegal breeding operations that churn out pups, keep the animals in poor conditions, and promote suffering neglect.

Hunte Corp was specifically mentioned in the article.  Sorry, I've seen and heard Hunte Corp trucks pick up pups at one of their breeders' sites.  I hope someday there will be a time that I can forget the anguish and suffering I witnessed.  I don't care how clean and healthy those dogs are - it's cruel how they are treated, and the horror of transporting pups and selling them like TV sets at the mall, can't be dressed up in enough blue ribbons to make it acceptable to me.

I still do not make the connection between illegal drug dealers and puppy mills, regardless of how tweeibly a miller's dogs are neglected.

I didn't say dealers.  I said the cartels.  The analogy is between the pet industry as a whole, which is equally tainted with the exploitation and condonement of animal suffering, and the drug cartels, which are funded by drug money but are so entwined in the culture of their communities that it is impossible to touch them without touching innocent lives, communities, and institutions. 

The argument of the article is, look, these guys are cool, they do a lot of good, and they are positioned to get us what we want.  Why not join forces?  In the same way communities in Latin America often have to make this same choice - to take charity from local cartel powers, to allow them to alleviate the suffering of their communities.  Some stand their ground.  Some close their eyes to the pain those resources represent and rationalize away the twinges of conscience.

 

Such as APRI being the one funding the legislatiors who allow us all the rights to breed?

Legislators don't allow you to breed.  You have that right as long as we are vigilant and work with the right motivation to maintain that. 

rwbeagles

HoundMusic

. Professional breeders and puppy mills are not one in the same. I

To you.

Your view is certainly not everyone's, nor is mine quite likely...I think that'd be a fair statement? Would you agree that the terms above may be open to interpretation by each person reading?

     So what would you define as a puppy mill? Someone who has X amount of dogs and breeds X amount of litters regardless of how they're cared for? Or just anyone who breeds and makes a profit? What about those  show breeders who breed once a year and crate their "home raised" dogs 24/7, inbreed to the point they are perpetuating genetic problems? (I can name several top show breeders *not necessarily beagles* that have a problem with dogs producing a high rate of genetic diseases directly because of poor breeding decisios) Not trying to be argumentative, just showing a point. I personally know professional breeders who have only a few more dogs than show breeders in the top standings and are producing LESS genetic problems and promoting MORE genetic diversity within their lines, not breeding toward fads, etc. My point is, neither one group is better than the other. I've gotten dogs in deplorable, neglected conditions from show breeders, and had they been licensed ... they would have been in it up to their necks They may have produced a helluva lot less litters than someone breeding for the pet market and supplying the Hunte corp. but are they truly BETTER? While the commercial breeders have state of the art kennels with heating/air conditioning & kennel runs, exercize areas - there are some very small scale AKC "elite" breeders cramping dogs in crates all day, leasing out bitches continuously after they finish their championship, letting their dogs go to pot. That's what I mean, and that is what I think is at the heart of this article. There are commercial breeders whose breeding practices/ethics would put some show breeders to shame. An I am simply not referring to puppy mills with dogs kept on wire and bred to death, just to clear the issue. Professional breeders, not those who breed their dogs to death. Huge difference.
     Anyway, if no wants to actually debate, just tell me that every breeder that doesn't show is a puppy mill, I'm done here :) Thanks!

I long ago dropped the term "puppy mill" from my vocabulary. I have no problem with someone being a professional breeder - in the sense that they make a profit at it. I have no business with a commercial breeder in the sense that they run their breeding as a business and make money doing so. I have no issue with a high volume breeder as long as they have staff and a set up that allows for all their dogs to receive quality care. The ones I have a problem with I call "substandard". I also have a problem with breeders who sell to pet stores. There is no support system for the future owners, these are the dogs that will end up mistreated or in shelters later on. I have seen "professional" "commercial" "high volume" breeders who sell directly to the puppies new owner and continue to provide lifelong support for any questions that arise. They have breeding stock in excellent health, exercised, socialized, kept clean, vetted routinely.

HoundMusic

So what would you define as a puppy mill? Someone who has X amount of dogs and breeds X amount of litters regardless of how they're cared for? Or just anyone who breeds and makes a profit?

That sounds like a great topic for a new thread!

 

From Showdogs-Plus Yahoo group:
*a rebuttal from the OP* explains the point I was (poorly, lol) attempting to make with much more clarity: 

I remember several years ago a couple of judges visited the Hunte Corp
facilities. And one of them wrote about what she saw...and was tried,
convicted and crucified for her report. To be honest, my own reaction at
the time was...She's kidding? Right? She has to be joking! My knee jerk
reaction was one of outrage. I was being betrayed by my own side! I don't
even remember who it was now, but I bet some of you can remind me! *G*

And I thought about this all the way home from the seminar. And then I
thought...yeah, well, if you didn't know some of these things, who else
doesn't? I'm a nobody. I've been showing dogs for under 10 years, I've
bred two litters, I have 7 champions in the house - 2 of my own breeding and
one almost finished (PLEASE GOD, send me a major!), and the other 5
Champions from other breeders. Just who is gonna care what you think???
So, I decided I should report what I found - for one thing, I had nothing to
lose really. *G* I'm pleased, and totally dumbfounded by the responses. I
have been inundated with requests to forward and reprint and share it.
Sheila Gross kindly posted for me that permission was granted as I ran out
of posts yesterday, but still the requests kept pouring in. If I had
thought I'd get this kind of response I'd have put it on there in the first
place, but honestly? I more than half expected to be mourning my own
crucifixion today.

In my reply to Patty yesterday (that was forwarded here along with my
original Undercover Weekend post) I posed a question on what other
organization had been mentioned at the MPBA seminar. Only one person took a
guess...and she wasn't even close. Well, the organization is...Whelpwise.
I've not taken advantage of this service myself since as I said I've had a
grand
total of 2 litters. But the veterinarian commenting on the service was
asking everybody WHY they don't use it? At about $400 per use it was still
cheaper than a veterinarian and an extremely valuable tool for any breeder.
I was so surprised to hear this service touted there I just about choked.
That's OUR tool! But yet again, it showed me something I didn't know. These
folks are *dead serious* about their dogs. If they didn't care, why bother
with something like Whelpwise? I mean hell, you can always get
another dog! And then it hit me. It's just like buying treats. Treats
provide nothing toward nutrition - they make US feel better. It's like
eating chocolate or ice cream for us but liver, chicken and beef are way
better for the dogs. I counted today just for grins - I have no less than 7
different boxes and bags of treats on top of the fridge. I saw people this
weekend carrying off CARTONS of treats. And yeah, I succumbed and bought a
carton of Bil-Jacs Little Jacs. Hey - it was a heck of a good deal..and my
guys are nearly taking my FINGERS off. They don't like the ones in the
little purple cartons though. Strange.

I didn't mean and I still don't to turn this into a "huzzah" for the
Professional Breeder. I can't help feeling a bit torn over the whole
situation. I still can't get nightmare pictures out of my head of dogs in
tiny cages pumping out litter after litter, never feeling grass under their
feet, or the soft touch of a loving human hand on their head. But what I
saw this weekend doesn't "fit" that image. Oh sure, it might for the
Bubbas. But once again I remind you, we have our dirty little secrets too.
And in that respect, far be it from me to throw stones as I am certainly not
without sin.

I would just bet that each and every one of you can name somebody in your
own breed you are less than happy to have there. And no, I don't mean your
worst enemy cuz they dissed your dogs, but somebody you KNOW keeps a
"sub-standard" kennel. What are you doing about it? Again, I'm not talking
witch hunt here. That would be a very easy trap to fall into. I mean, a
true "Bubba." Until WE as a group can honestly say we have no Bubbas, I
don't think we can be tossing stones. Do you? The professional breeders of
Missouri demonstrated to me this weekend just how far from that nightmare
image they have come. It's not perfect, it's not how I want to do things,
but then I know people who keep their dogs in kennel runs instead of the
house. Doesn't make them "Bubbas" by a long shot. It just makes them
different from me. I can handle that.

My entire post was meant to try and open some eyes. I know mine had to be
round as dinner plates this weekend. I've gotten private e-mails from
people saying "I know this gal that is a professional breeder, but ya know
what? She truly cares about her dogs, and if anybody would just give her a
chance she'd actually make a good addition to our breed." And I didn't get
just ONE like that. It's just that nobody talks about it. Who wants to
admit they know a professional breeder, let alone actually LIKE the
person???? (And no, I'm not gonna out anybody. Take a deep breath. LOL)
But let somebody actually GIVE that person a chance...and we all know what
would happen don't we? That big ole cross comes out and people start
getting crucified. Heck, I admit, I was pretty happy to find nobody in the
MPBA directory breeding salukis. I half suspect that given the look of my
breed that many would be afraid of being turned in for starving their dogs.
It's happened in the past to hobby breeders and owners. It's the first
question many sighthound owners get. Don't you feed that dog??

So I'll close this by saying I'm impressed with "us." I'm not hanging on a
cross this evening, and I've had so many e-mails of support I'm literally
overwhelmed. We've come a long way in our willingness to be openminded
since we crucified that poor judge. There is a long way to go yet. But
maybe, just maybe, the "us vs them" mentality can quietly go back where it
came from and we can get on with doing something important. Like fighting
BSL. And fighting BAD laws. And definitely exposing PETA and HSUS for the
whacked lunatics they are. Because ya know what other reaction I get from
JQP when I mention bad legislation? I didn't know we weren't gonna be able
to own a dog. I LOVE my dog. Seems to me we're doing a piss poor job of
getting the word out on even this, the biggest fight we've ever faced. Stop
preaching to the choir folks and start talking to Fluffy's owner down the
street. They may not get why they shouldn't let Fluffy out the front door
to go play in the street, but they WILL by God get it that they won't even
HAVE Fluffy if we lose.

(And yes, permission to cross post granted should anybody care to. *G*)


Betsy

Betsy & Kevin Cummings
Tribute Salukis
Visit us at www.K9Stitches.com

Thanks for posting the update...doesn't change my feelings on the matter.

Houndmusic

I would probably be the last to debate with you on this topic, I think you and I share the same opinion on this matter, I am probably just not as brave as you to post here and out myself.  I wish I were.

I was attacked here about 2 years ago for getting started in breeding and actually outing myself about it to the dog.com community, which might have been somewhat fair at the time, becuase I was in essence a glorified BYB and was still learning.  But I have come a long way, have attended many seminars in my home state and others(there is one I am very excited about comming up at the end of march!), have spoken to many professional breeders and visited their kennels, I have a great network of vets and breeders I can turn to, and I have done my homework on genetics and health concerns for my breeds. 

I am a "Professional Breeder, and actually quite proud of it, I have worked hard to earn the title, and do not deserve to be put down for my efforts.  I put in a lot of man hours to make sure my kennel was designed in the best interest of the dogs, they each are handled daily, and are kept in cleaner conditions than the average pet.  I have no idea how many hours I put in logging all of the information on a regular basis so that I know every thing about each dog and have it doccumented for reference.  My dogs do know what grass is and are reminded quite frequently, though I will admit probably not every day, but so what?  Most don't seem to care when they are put out on it, notr do they seem to miss it when they o back to their spaceous enclosures.  All recieve routine vet care and annual check ups, and I feed 3 different dog food formulas to ensure that everyone is getting the best nutrition I can give them.  My dogs whelp and raise their pups in my home under my supervision, and I have very strict protocalls I follow in terms of their care and eventually placement in their new forever homes, which I interview potential families for when the time comes.  I am not USDA licensed because I do not sell to brokers or pet stores, but I am subject to surprise inspections from the state of KS with who I am licensed.  Not to mention the time and money I dump into continuing education through the seminars, lectures, and club meetings I attend, and the gas, food, and hotels included in those trips.  I am licensed with the State of Kansas, and there are rules set down that have to to be followed in terms of the care I must provide, if I don't follow them, I loose my license, and tarnish my reputation as a good breeder.  No, I do not do *all* of the possible health testing that one could do, but my dogs are very well cared for, and any potential problems are assesed when they arise.  I do cull dogs who throw bad genetic traits, and do have extensive health guarantees on every puppy, including a "take back" policy for the life of the dog.

I produce healthy pets who enrich the lives of the families who recieve them, I am a professional breeder and I take my job very seriously.  If that is not enough for you, and you still want to consider me a puppy mill, that's fine with me.  I will sleep just fine tonight knowing that my dogs are well cared for and happy, and that I am doing everything within my power to ensure it. 

I guess everyone's idea of what constitutes a "mill" is and always be different, until Webster's dictionary lays it out in black and white.  The term is thrown around by AR waco's way too much, just to further their causes, and in essence has caused it's meaning to be muddled into what ever they want it to mean at that time.  I have my own opinions on what constitutes a mill, and they do not seem to be the opions of many on this site, but would like to see a friendly comparison of everyone elses opinion of what defines a puppy mill, and why they see it the way they do.   

Here is another cross post from the Petlaw list about puppy mills, goes good with the discussion here:

What is a Puppy Mill
by Charlotte Clem McGowan

I cringe now when I hear the phrase "puppy mill." What I have to say may
not
win any popularity contests for me but it needs to be said.

1. What is a puppy mill? You have your definition I am sure. But there is
no
LEGAL definition of a puppy mill. Because we in the fancy have freely
thrown
this phrase around, we have actually aided the animal rights activists.
As far
as the animal rights activists are concerned, a puppy mill is anyone who
purposefully breeds ANY dogs, even a single litter! I will bet you do not
agree
with this definition. But take a look at Calif. AB 1634 and see what's
going on.
In terms of AB 1634, you breed a litter, you're a PROBLEM! That's the way
that
bill is framed.

2. If there is no legal definition of a puppy mill, should we be in favor
of
preventing all breeding of dogs based on our own personal definition of a
"puppy mill?" I think not. People want pets. You and I dont breed enough
to
supply them. Think about that!

3. Can we agree there is a definition of a puppy mill? I think not. Ask
10
fanciers independently and you will get 10 different answers. So what
does the
public think? How does the public (not dog breeders) define a puppy mill?
Here
is where the AR's have used us. They talk about "overpopulation" and the
need
to stop ALL breeding. We talk about "puppymills" and stopping puppy
mills. So
the public is now confused since there is no legal definition of a puppy
mill.
The public is beginning to view breeders, all breeders, as puppy mills.
We
have contributed to public perception. We don't breed enough to supply
the
public's desire for pets but we oppose breeding by others who see a need
and
plan to fill it for profit.

4. We need to stop buying into the "overpopulation" rhetoric. People want
pets and people will have pets. It is a matter of who will supply those
pets.
We need to focus the public on the value of purebreds over the various
doddles
and poos and mutts imported from Mexico, Puerto Rico and everywhere else.
As
long as we talk about "puppy mills" we are missing the boat. Talk about
substandard kennels if you like. Talk about conditions. No one approves
of dogs
badly kept. Talk about diseases brought in by mutts from tropical
climates. But
don't talk about puppy mills.

5. Petland and Hunte exist for a reason: people want pets. They are
commercial entities. We hobbyists don't like the idea of commercial
entitites.
That's been clear for ever so long. Does that mean that all commercial
sellers are
"puppy mills?" Well, there is no legal definition, please remember.
Petland and
Hunte probably do a much better job of selling commercial bred dogs than
the
mass breeders of doodles and poos and the chances of a Petland dog being
healthy
are way ahead of what the chances are for the mutt imported from Mexico
or
Puerto Rico. But the animal rights activists have been extremely
successful in
convincing you, the hobbyist, that all commercial bred dogs are bred in
filth
and squalor. In fact, that's not true. The terible kennels of the 80's
have in
large part been weeded out by AKC's Inspections and Investigations
department and 5000 inspections a year along with the USDA inspections.
There are still
some bad kennels, but guess what, there are bad hobby breeder kennels!
Does
that mean because you may personally know of a kennel where the dogs are
not
kept well, that all hobbyists are bad? Of course not. We just don't like
the idea
of commercially bred pets. But definitions count!

6. Historical fact: Some of our founding breeders of our own Shelties,
people
we all respect, made a lot of their living selling dogs including pets.
People like Dot Foster (Timberidge) chief author of the current standard,
Betty Whelen, excellent and beloved breeder, etc. There was a time it was
ok to breed lots of dogs and sell the non showdogs for pets, and do it
proudly. What happened? We all convinced ourselves we shouldn't breed too
many dogs. We left the door open for commercial breeders and sellers.

7. The animal rights people have changed the landscape. If you help
protest
"puppy mills" please remember there is no legal definition. Some of the
commercial breeders have state of the art kennels. I know you don't want
to hear
that, but it is true. Does a commercial kennel that is state of the art
qualify
as a "puppy mill?" Does your fellow breeder who breeds two extra litters
of
puppies a year qualify as a puppy mill? Does your single litter quality
you as a
puppy mill? Depends on whose definition you use.

And remember that as we fight bad legislation, we are ALL Puppy Mills
according to the animal rights activists! Let's concentrate on the real
enemy: the animal rights activists who want no purposefully bred dogs at
all.