Professional Breeders

Izzaboo

I was attacked here about 2 years ago for getting started in breeding and actually outing myself about it to the dog.com community, which might have been somewhat fair at the time, becuase I was in essence a glorified BYB and was still learning.  But I have come a long way, have attended many seminars in my home state and others(there is one I am very excited about comming up at the end of march!), have spoken to many professional breeders and visited their kennels, I have a great network of vets and breeders I can turn to, and I have done my homework on genetics and health concerns for my breeds. 

I am a "Professional Breeder, and actually quite proud of it, I have worked hard to earn the title, and do not deserve to be put down for my efforts. 

     Well, WTG for admitting it! Most breeders were BYBs when they started, and I'm all for educating a newbie, or discouraging them from undertaking the endeavor of breeding ... most don't understand what it actually takes. I strongly feel that the BYBs are the ones who bred Muffy to Fido down the block for that "just one" litter are the ones doing the damage. NOT professional breeders. Even though I feel this way, I still believe they have the right to breed Muffy to Fido. However, the breeder attacking mentality and labeling of everyone who doesn't show as a puppy mill or BYB - GRRRRR! That gets under my skin. Worst part is, it usually comes from people who never bred a litter ...
     I was slammed here a while ago for admitting I use APRI as well as other regestries :::GASP::: That seals it, I'm a puppy mill. Even my AKC litters are dual reg. APRI  I loved this article because it spoke well of APRI and this show breeder "got it" about how much they do for the BREEDERS. Not just professional breeders. BREEDERS. The rights many show breeders still have are due in part to the effort of the professional breeders commitment & dollars to keeping breeding legal. That scares me, that breeding is on the brink of being outlawed in some states. And the ARs don't discriminate between the show breeder who whelps one litter ever 2-3 years and has dedicated practically their souls to preserving the breed from professional breeders or puppy mills, or those who just want to breed Muffy & Fido. So as a group, we should not be discriminating against other breeders.
     For me, breeding is primarily a hobby/obsession with my breed. However it has enriched my life in numerous ways, and one of those ways is the profit I make off my well bred litters. I'm not ashamed, because profit is not a dirty word. I answer only to myself, my dogs, my extended family of puppy buyers and most of all, GOD. And all the afformentioned know full well what sort of person/breeder I am.   
     So again, Izzaboo, good for you for admitting you're a professional breeder! I do have commercial breeder friends and I think I have at least a good idea of what it takes to operate a professional kennel. It takes a level of dedication to the dogs most breeders who are in it for the trophys simply do not understand. It becomes a way of life, not just a profession. And let me just say, that most hobby breeders, and I'm probably guilty of this to an extent, would get write ups galore and be up to their necks in voilations were they all to become USDA or state licensed ... 

I abhor the idea of producing pets commercially.  It sickens me.  Dogs are not like computers or shoes or television sets.   They are not even like cattle or lambs or pigs.  They are being bought (or sold) to be a part of someone's family.  It's almost as bad as the idea of selling a human child.  Probably a bad analogy I will admit, but I hope it expresses some small part of how I feel about it.

If someone is producing dogs for a profit, then sorry, but no, they don't love and cherish each individual life that they bring into the world.  It's all very fine having a take-back policy for the life of the dog, but how can you do that, realistically, when you are producing for profit?  There is an upper limit to how many you can produce before you start spreading yourself thin.  How can you care so very much about every single pup, know who they are living with and be confident they are healthy, happy and well cared for, when you go over this limit?  OK, I will grant that ensuring each dog is healthy does mean more money in the long run.  But I'm sorry, having the well being of EVERY SINGLE DOG you breed as your number one priority, with the betterment of the breed as a whole a close second (in other words expending a great deal of time, money, energy and love on every dog and breeding just a few, very high quality litters) - where is the profit in that?

To those of you who have admitted breeding for profit in this thread - will you share how many litters you have bred in, say, the last five years?  How many pups was that?  Where are they now?  When was the last time you got a phone call, email or photograph from those families updating you on how their "baby" is doing?

My sister has a purebred dog.  The lady she bought from has bred 2 litters in the last 5 years.  One litter of 3 and one of 2.  She kept one pup in the hopes of continuing the line.  That leaves four.  She kept regular contact with 3 of the other families (including my sister) and lost touch with the 4th.  Some time back there was a shocking news report of a dog of her breed, of approximately the right age and colouring to be this "lost" pup.  The dog had been found by some boys and tortured for fun.  He almost died.  There was a local collection to pay for the vet treatment.  This lady lost A LOT of sleep about that pup, worrying that it was one of "hers".  It turned out not to be, but she donated heavily to the collection anyway. 

THAT is the kind of lady I want whelping and raising members of my family - not someone who is motivated by money.  And I make no apologies for that.

Chuffy

If someone is producing dogs for a profit, then sorry, but no, they don't love and cherish each individual life that they bring into the world.  It's all very fine having a take-back policy for the life of the dog, but how can you do that, realistically, when you are producing for profit? 

    
     Unless you know a person, how can you say with certainty their pups are regarded as a commodity and nothing more? I'm sure some do, but please don't lump all breeders into one category. I agree with you that dogs are not disposable nor should they be manufactured, pumped out like TV sets. You can be a good breeder & still make a profit. I have made a profit on all but my first litter, and sorry, but you were not with me by the whelping box when we had a bitch delivered a pup who was blue, lifeless. You didn't see me shake her down, didn't hear my prayers that life be given to her, didn't see the tears being held back in the heat of the moment. You weren't there to see me shake with relief when my efforts were rewarded. You don't know how proud I am of that pup, who, a year later, is just getting started working for her CD title :) I know every puppy, the order they were whelped, what color yarn I marked them with, which family they went to & their names those families gave to them. You weren't with me while I ran myself ragged with my current litter the first few days of their life. They were born a week premature, small, weak, and had were all affected wiht diarrhea that nearly claimed their lives. You didn't cry with me after the pup who was born @ 6 oz finally went down to 5.2 oz 48hrs after her birth. I never gave up on her, but in my heart, I was picking out a nice area for her to rest in the yard  She lived. And it wasn't because I saw dollar signs when I looked at her, it was because I see life, and I and almost every other breeder I know has a profund and deep respect for all life. Some become hardened, but you can't be thin skinned and breed. So please don't tell me you are certain that anyone who breeds and makes a profit on their pups regards the dogs as shoes on an assembly line.

 

Chuffy

To those of you who have admitted breeding for profit in this thread - will you share how many litters you have bred in, say, the last five years?  How many pups was that?  Where are they now?  When was the last time you got a phone call, email or photograph from those families updating you on how their "baby" is doing?

     Well, to be perfectly honest, I'm not a commercial breeder - breeding is my hobby and I started out first hunting with some neutered pet Beagles, which then grew into an obsession. Along the way I've always been blessed with other breeders who helped steer me in the right direction, educate me. These were both show and professional breeders. I breed first and foremost to improve the breed, and by no stretch of the imagination is that lip service. I have been tenacious in that goal and have had my heard broken into a thousand pieces so badly I nearly got out of breeding a few months ago. That all being said, I do make a profit on my litters, and it is somewhat of a side job. Breeding is a business, whether you breed one litter every other year or 10 litters per year. Personally, my average has been 2 per year & I've been breeding since late 2005. Including the one I have now, I've bred a total of 5 litters. About to breed my 6th next week, lol :) I receive Christmas cards, thank you notes, photos/videos, and the best compliment of all, am soon to have my first repeat buyer. I have also "babysat" two of my previous pups as their families chose to leave them in my care in lieu of kenneling. I know the names of 95% of these pups. Most of my buyers do keep me updated, the good and the bad. Sometimes, someone just wants to call and brag, and that's what I like to hear! That wouldn't change regardless of the amount of litters I breed. FYI, the last time I heard from oen of these families was last month from last yer's litter - owner gave me another update ont he dog going for her CD title. And the other day, got a call from another owner, the one who is boarding his pup with me next month.

Chuffy

My sister has a purebred dog.  The lady she bought from has bred 2 litters in the last 5 years.  One litter of 3 and one of 2.  She kept one pup in the hopes of continuing the line.  That leaves four.  She kept regular contact with 3 of the other families (including my sister) and lost touch with the 4th.  Some time back there was a shocking news report of a dog of her breed, of approximately the right age and colouring to be this "lost" pup.  The dog had been found by some boys and tortured for fun.  He almost died.  There was a local collection to pay for the vet treatment.  This lady lost A LOT of sleep about that pup, worrying that it was one of "hers".  It turned out not to be, but she donated heavily to the collection anyway. 

THAT is the kind of lady I want whelping and raising members of my family - not someone who is motivated by money. 

     So, if you breed a certain amount of litters, you don't worry about your pups anymore? That makes no sense - it's just the AR mentality that commercial breeders are evil, and that is not the truth. We all worry. I actually just got off the phone with a breeder who usually has one litter per year, all show bred. Quite prestegoius, well known. Turns out that every pup in her last litter bred a few months ago has a genetic defect. One very serious, three cherry eyes. She had the cherry eye removed from the pups, and one will start his show career soon. And will go on to be bred. That's one of my knockout factors. Seriously. I won't breed a cherry eye pup. Especially when there were other defects in the litter. They'll make someone a good pet and nothing more. I'm very proud of the health in my foundation line and before I breed a litter, the most improtant factors are the health, temperament of the litter. That's what matters first, then hunt, then conformation. I guarantee my pups health, I do have a takeback clause and even if I could not take the pup on my premesis would assist in finding a new home. I screen my buyers well to hopefully avoid that as much as possible. I send out health surveys for my pups and do get most of them returned. So I have a pretty good idea of what I'm producing, and yes, I do worry about the ones I never heard back from :(  But that's all part of the job. Not everyone will update faithfully, and a few not at all. If I couldn't handle that, then I'd have no business breeding ...

 

 

Wow, Chuffy, take a breath...we are trying to stay civilized here.  and yes, please don't assume you know me, my motives, my priorities, or any thing else about what I do and how much I care about my dogs-because you don't and probably never will unless you came out for a visit, or took the time to get to know me as a friend.  That is what this tread was all about, not ASSUMING.

I won't even go into my thought on everything else you said, I'm sure we'd just end up getting heated(which I don't want) and eventually have to agree to disagree anyway. 

Once again, Hound music said it all very well. 

Chuffy

Dogs are not like computers or shoes or television sets.   They are not even like cattle or lambs or pigs.  They are being bought (or sold) to be a part of someone's family.  It's almost as bad as the idea of selling a human child.  Probably a bad analogy I will admit, but I hope it expresses some small part of how I feel about it.

 They are being bought or sold whenever money is exchanged between two parties for a dog - be it a rescue, a breeder or a petstore. What si wrong with that? I have bought some of my dogs, have sold dogs and also have been given some of my dogs and given away dogs. Is giving dogs away better than selling them? What is the proper way to obtain a dog?

To me, a puppy mill = bad conditions for the dog (whether it be horrid conditions or, simply, a facility in which the dogs don't get the stimulation and exercise they require). I will not in any way shape or form support any company that will sell to a pet store, no matter how well they keep their dogs. Pet stores don't screen puppy owners. They do one thing and that's sell to the impulse buyer, which, IMO is rolling the dice with the pup's life. The owners may buck up and become good owners, or, the owners may refuse to learn and at best drop the pup/young adult at the shelter or, at worst, abuse/abandone the dog. That's a gamble that I don't really appreciate.

Now, if the commercial breeder that meets the puppy owner and screens these people before saying "here's your pup," good for you. I mean that in every way, shape, and form. I will say, I don't agree with producing puppy's mainly for profit on any terms. That's my choice. Right now, I don't believe that there is a real "niche" for commercial enteties as one of the posts claimed. There are people out their that shouldn't get a dog/shouldn't get a dog RIGHT NOW (I WAS one of them, by the way), but they are the ones typically creating this hypothetical "niche." In addition, more than a million dogs ares euthanized every year. Not all of them are adoptable, but many of these animals are capable of filling the void that responsible/low producing breeders cannot.

I have just as big a problem with BYB's as the commercial doggy factories that sell to pet stores (sorry, I couldn't help but call them that). I bought from a BYB with the $$$ complex. I ended up with a wonderful dog, but she has behavioral issues that, in part, stem from her puppyhood. In the 3 years I've bought her, the breeder hasn't contacted me once to check on her, and I haven't contacted her.... for all she knows, Maddi's been abused and killed and her body dumped on a dirt road. Does she care? Who knows.. Extreme, yes, but it's also a very possible reality.

I have a big issue with anyone that breeds soley for profit, whether it be 1 litter or 10 litters year. Especially if they don't incorporate temperment and genetics into their program. I like to see the parent dogs titled somehow (preferably working) or, at the very best, proven in a real world environment... i.e. border collies that really heard sheep on a farm. I don't know how I feel about breeders such as Izzaboo... I don't support them, and never will, but I'm not ready to condem.

HoundMusic

Chuffy

If someone is producing dogs for a profit, then sorry, but no, they don't love and cherish each individual life that they bring into the world.  It's all very fine having a take-back policy for the life of the dog, but how can you do that, realistically, when you are producing for profit? 

    
     Unless you know a person, how can you say with certainty their pups are regarded as a commodity and nothing more? I'm sure some do, but please don't lump all breeders into one category.

 

Immediately, I see I have been misunderstood.  Nowhere have I suggested that you, or anyone else, see their pups as commodities. I am sure that you love them all as much as you possibly can - but the key word here is POSSIBLY.  If I go to a breeder for a puppy, I choose a breeder who breeds a few treasured litters - and considers every single pup "theirs", knows them intimately even after they have "left home" and builds a very good friendship with their new families.  I just don't think profit fits in with that ethic.  I am  not don't think that it is even POSSIBLE if you (colloquial) breed for profit, unless you charge a huge sum of money and squeeze "normal" pet owners out of the market - therefore pushing them to pet shops or bad breeders, which is far from ideal.

I have not said it's impossible to gain a profit from breeding.  But I think it should be a bonus, not a goal.  If a person says they "breed for profit", it sounds like a goal and would put me off. 

If you do not consider yourself a commercial breeder and you have stated confidently that your fisrt goal is to improve the breed, then why on earth do you think any of my above post was direct at yourself?   

HoundMusic

Chuffy

My sister has a purebred dog.  The lady she bought from has bred 2 litters in the last 5 years.  One litter of 3 and one of 2.  She kept one pup in the hopes of continuing the line.  That leaves four.  She kept regular contact with 3 of the other families (including my sister) and lost touch with the 4th.  Some time back there was a shocking news report of a dog of her breed, of approximately the right age and colouring to be this "lost" pup.  The dog had been found by some boys and tortured for fun.  He almost died.  There was a local collection to pay for the vet treatment.  This lady lost A LOT of sleep about that pup, worrying that it was one of "hers".  It turned out not to be, but she donated heavily to the collection anyway. 

THAT is the kind of lady I want whelping and raising members of my family - not someone who is motivated by money. 

     So, if you breed a certain amount of litters, you don't worry about your pups anymore? That makes no sense

Of course it makes sense!  There is certainly an upper limit.  That's not to say you no longer WORRY - but yes, I do believe you begin to spread yourself too thin if you breed too many too frequently.  Do you understand what I mean by "spread yourself too thin"?  I don't know maybe I am just not making myself clear because you are posting as if my my views are black and white and this is certainly not the case.

Izzaboo

Wow, Chuffy, take a breath...we are trying to stay civilized here. 

 

So was I.  Please remember that this is a very difficult way to communicate - there is no facial expression, body language or tone of voice to help us convey our meaning.  Just as you do not wish me to presume what you think, do and feel, try to have the same thing in mind when all you have to go on is my clumsily worded post(s).

Izzaboo

please don't assume you know me, my motives, my priorities, or any thing else about what I do and how much I care about my dogs

 

I haven't directed a single one of my comments at you personally, precisely BECAUSE I don't know you well enough.  So please don't take them as such. 
 

AgileGSD

Chuffy

Dogs are not like computers or shoes or television sets.   They are not even like cattle or lambs or pigs.  They are being bought (or sold) to be a part of someone's family.  It's almost as bad as the idea of selling a human child.  Probably a bad analogy I will admit, but I hope it expresses some small part of how I feel about it.

 They are being bought or sold whenever money is exchanged between two parties for a dog - be it a rescue, a breeder or a petstore. What si wrong with that? I have bought some of my dogs, have sold dogs and also have been given some of my dogs and given away dogs. Is giving dogs away better than selling them? What is the proper way to obtain a dog?

 

Oh dear I did do a bad job didn't I?  No, I have NO PROBLEM with dogs being bought and sold!  But I do have a problem, occasionally, in the WAY they are bought and sold.  I totally and utterly despise pet shops selling dogs. 

The person whelping and raising the dog obviously wishes to recoup some of the cost of doing so, not to mention showing, finishing, health testing etc. the parents.  Similarly, shelters also have costs that need to be met.

To answer your question - the proper way to obtain a dog is from a reputable shelter or ethical breeder.  It seems that, due to the words "reputable" and "ethical", the decision on where to get a dog lies with your own conscience.

 

 

 

Edit - thinking about it, if I were looking for a puppy right now, I would not be put off if someone said they were a "professional breeder".  It means different things to different people.  You could be a "professional breeder" and still meet MY criteria.  Also, I have never asked a breeder if they "breed for profit".  I want to visit and interview, I want to see health certs and the like - and these are what decide me.  I have never thought to ask a breeder the question.  I still won't, because again, it could still mean different things.  Someone could breed for a very high "profit" but put it ALL back into ensuring every dog is as healthy and happy as possible.  So I find the whole question of "profit" to be irrelevant.  In any case, if the person doing all the hard work HAS managed to get a little bit back for themselves, good for them.  I think if money has been the priority - to the extent that they can no longer ensure excellent health and well being of every dog they produce, for the lifetime of the dog, then I think that will show without asking "are you a professional breeder?" or "do you breed for profit?"

Chuffy

Someone could breed for a very high "profit" but put it ALL back into ensuring every dog is as healthy and happy as possible.  So I find the whole question of "profit" to be irrelevant.  In any case, if the person doing all the hard work HAS managed to get a little bit back for themselves, good for them.  I think if money has been the priority - to the extent that they can no longer ensure excellent health and well being of every dog they produce, for the lifetime of the dog, then I think that will show without asking "are you a professional breeder?" or "do you breed for profit?"

     The crux of the matter is, that professional breeders do breed for profit. A professional breeder is someone who has chosen to raise dogs for a living rather than become a doctor, lawyer, secretary, etc. Hence, breeding is their "profession". Obviously, money is the priority to a professional breeder. But I think the assumption you (and MANY others) are placing on a professional breeder is that if they're not placing all that profit back into their dogs they are automatically unscrupulous. That if money is the priority the dogs will not be well taken care of or out of sound healthy breeding stock. That was also one of the undertones of the article - it's a miscopnception that profit off liters equates to poor care of the dogs. Personally, I do make a good profit off my litters, and while of course, some does go back into the dogs, certainly nothing near most or all of it. If I make $3,000 off one litter, I don't even think I'd know how to spend all that on them My expenses per litter usually run to be abuot $200 or under. Wormers cost me about $8 per bottle - I buy the fenbendazole or pyrantel for horses and it lasts me months. Vaccines are approx $50 per litter. Food is the largest expense, figure $100 per litter. That's about it, unless of course we encounter a problem. I have a bottle of sulfadimethoxine if we should have a prob with coccidiosis - along with amoxicillin, metrondizole, cephelaxin ... Those meds cost me under $100. And I hardly use them. The blunt of the work raising pups is not monetary but elbow grease :) Socialization, cleaning, cleaning, laundry, cleaning, feeding, website upkeep, working with puppy buyers, and then there is always cleaning to be done, lol. My pups are well bred, health guaranteed, low incidence of problems in my line, and I work like a dog properly raising & socializing them. As I mentioned, it's a hobby before anything else, but if I could not make a profit off my litters I would not be able to breed. So profit has to be one of my objectives. Otherwise, I would not be able to produce these wonderful pups if I ws constantly in the red or making only enough to support the dogs.

     Another point to consider is that most breeders who breed for profit must be licensed. They must adhere to strict record keeping and husbandry standards that your average hobby or show breeder does not need to live up to.

HoundMusic

The crux of the matter is, that professional breeders do breed for profit. A professional breeder is someone who has chosen to raise dogs for a living rather than become a doctor, lawyer, secretary, etc. Hence, breeding is their "profession".

 

This makes your overheads higher, because you have to LIVE on the money AS WELL as breed pups responsibly.  I mean, you have to eat and what not.  It's got to be harder and more expensive.  Frankly, if you are a professional breeder and you are doing it "properly", then I'm guessing I couldn't afford you.  As I said before, it's not the "breeding for profit" which is a problem.  It's when the health and well being of the dogs suffer.  What I am thinking is, in order to MAKE a profit, you have to either cut corners, or push your prices up, or both.

Do you think there is a limit, morally speaking, as to how high the profit margin can be or can people charge as much as they like?  What I mean is, going back to the breeder of my sisters dog - she worked hard to keep her prices DOWN by NOT making any profit, because she didn't want to scare away potential buyers, who may then go to another, less reputable source. What are your thoughts on that? 

HoundMusic

That was also one of the undertones of the article - it's a miscopnception that profit off liters equates to poor care of the dogs.

 

Sometimes this could be a misconception and sometimes it could be true.  For ME, it is not the be all and end all of the issue either way.  There are other factors to be considered.  I am not saying that professional breeders are "evil" by any stretch, but it's not something I think is "right" either and therefore I would rather not support it.

Chuffy

As I said before, it's not the "breeding for profit" which is a problem.  It's when the health and well being of the dogs suffer.  What I am thinking is, in order to MAKE a profit, you have to either cut corners, or push your prices up, or both.

     And as I mentioned, don't assume the health & well being of a dog will suffer simply because the breeder is seeking to make a profit. It can be done economically - professionals can raise their dogs cheaper than most pet owners know how to raise their pets. You DO NOT need to cut corners - in fact, any decent breeder will tell you cutting corners will only cost you in the long run. 
     In the US, at least, it's the smaller, hobby breeders that are usually more expensive than a commercial breeder, whose pups would be priced for a quicker sale. Personally, I like to keep the price of my pups moderately high, and in that instance it has nothing to do with profit :)  But I'd actually rather see higher prices than lower, b/c it does discourage impulse buying, to an extent. Every breeder prices their pups at what they believe them to be worth, that is something personal to the indivigual breeder & if certain buyers can't afford that price ... oh, well. Please don't even begin to imply that there is something wrong with upping price @@

Chuffy

Do you think there is a limit, morally speaking, as to how high the profit margin can be or can people charge as much as they like?  What I mean is, going back to the breeder of my sisters dog - she worked hard to keep her prices DOWN by NOT making any profit, because she didn't want to scare away potential buyers, who may then go to another, less reputable source. What are your thoughts on that? 

     
    Well, I'm glad the breeder of your sister's dog is so admirable. But I price my pups @ what I believe they're worth, and I won't sell them - or myself short. Have you ever thought maybe that breeder's price was so low because she wanted pups to sell quickly? That's usually why pups are marked down, or markedly cheaper than the average of that breed. Either way, I don't consider a breeder reputable because they sell cheaper pups than the norm - ANY BREEDER prices their pups at a price reasonable to what work/money was expended on the litter. Unless that breeder had quite the expendable income, I doubt she allowed herself to go in the red with the litter, and priced the pups @ what she thought was fair for them. Has nothing to do with her ethics! I don't feel one breeder should be obligated to lower their prices to prevent someone from going to a less reputable source. That's not my responsibility, and I doubt your sister's breeder was doing it for those reasons, in all honesty. Would you expect a breeder to approve a home they might otherwise turn down because they knew that home would go to a less reputable source for a pup? Makes no sense.

HoundMusic

Professional breeders and puppy mills are not one in the same.

 

 What is a professional breeder?

Is it someone who shows dogs, knows the breed very well, knows the lines and is striving to perfect their show stock? How many puppies do you need to breed in order to get that one perfect one? How do you go about homing the ones that are not up to the standard you are looking for?

 Or is it the person who knows the breed, loves the breed and on occasion has a litter of pups with the purpose of producing dogs that fit the standard and purpose of the breed?

 In my opinion the line is a fine one between what some would call professional or backyard or millers.

 My dogs came from those who would be considered by many to be back-yard breeders. They do not breed for profit, they breed because they love the dogs and want to produce a litter as close to standard and purpose as possible. They breed a litter ever 1-2 years at most. They are very selective about who gets one of their puppies, they take any puppy back for any reason, they make owners sign contracts not to breed without their permission (which is not easy to get).

 Then there are those that breed for profit although they take more care than a miller would they still produce 2-3 litters a year and in the breeds I own some of these are responsible for the countless rescues that go through the system. They show their dogs, they dress nice, they claim to love the breed but I still see a lot of them as irresponsible. In most cases they will not take a dog back, ever.

Puppy millers are of course scum since they do not even have the decency to take care of their breeding stock, but professional does not always mean great IMO and some of them come close to being mills. The only difference is that they provide better care to the animals in their possession.

I can't figure out how to use the quote feature, so I will just post this about profiting from the dogs and making a living at it...

I will try to explain how I do it.  Keep in mind, not everyone does it this way, andI may be the exception to the rule, but I know many professional breeders who don't survive solely off of the profit of their dogs, so I will explain my situation.  I am a stay at home mother by day, as well as taking care of the dogs and the books, etc....getting into the dog breeding enabled me to have the best of both worlds so to speak.  I get to stay at home and raise my children, and I have a profession that (most of the time!!) allows me to do so.  The children may have to come out and help me with the dogs so I can keep an eye on them, but they also get to help, learn some responsibility and the proper care and handling of living creatures, and have some fun playing with the dogs in the process.  Ours is truely a family operation, even my 2 year old gets involved. 

I have a total of 14 dogs at present(only 10 are females who have no more than 1 litter per year, if that), which isn't very many by most large breeder's standards, but it keeps us very busy, and is all I feel I have the time to properly care for right now.  That being said, I still have to pay the fees like bigger kennels do.  This last fall we spent $14,000 that I had saved from dog profits to build them a very nice( and spaceous) kennel.  I am very proud of it, and would not have been able to set them us in such nice diggs had I not been making a profit.  I do profit from the litters I sell, I couldn't afford to do this if I wasn't making a profit, but it is not enough to sustain my husband and I, and our 4 children.  My husband works full time in another profession so we have a steady income, and I also fill in on the night shift at the hospital once a week.  We don't live off of the money our dogs bring in, we would have to be huge to do that, but it does help us afford the extras, like vacations or conference trips, new appliances, paying off a loans early, college funds, or building nicer facilities for the dogs.  I do put money back into my dogs, but I will admit that not all of it goes to them,I put a lot of work into raising up a litter, and have no problem considering the earnings from the litter as compensation for all of my time and hard work.

I don't charge outrageous prices for my dogs, but then again, i'm not supporting my family on them either like some do.  I like to think I am right there in the high-middle.  I raise nice puppies and I don't consider my prices too high, but they are probably a little higher than the byb litter down the road.  People know thay can come to me for a nice pet, and even though they might pay a little more, I will stand behind what I produce.       

HoundMusic

So what would you define as a puppy mill?

 

It's pretty simple for me:  A puppy mill is more interested in the BUSINESS (read: money from sale) of dogs than in the welfare of those dogs once the transaction is finalized. 

HoundMusic

There are commercial breeders whose breeding practices/ethics would put some show breeders to shame.

 

That could be true.  But show breeders can be "professional" breeders as well.

HoundMusic

Anyway, if no wants to actually debate, just tell me that every breeder that doesn't show is a puppy mill, I'm done here :) Thanks!

 

You're not actually engaging in debate.  You presented one side and when a conflicting viewpoint was expressed, you lashed back.  

 

The issue of commercial breeders is a very touchy subject with very many people on this board, as I'm sure you know.  I would venture to say that the majority of members here have rescue dogs, have participated in rescue, transported rescues, fostered rescues, and been there at their final moments.  I am sure that many people feel that commercial breeders, for not screening homes, and for not caring about the welfare of these dogs and their final destinations place a certain amount of blame upon these "professional" breeders.  I do as well.