Pro or contra neutering?

You CAN'T crop a cockers ears.  There is NOTHING in the ear structure to MAKE them stand up if they are cropped.  And I seriously doubt that you would find ANY vet willing to do such a surgery solely for preventative reasons.
 
I'm sorry that you think it's being done backwards "at the present time".  However it isn't "at the present time"....historically the dogs with the shorter ears are the ones that they crop.  This isn't a new fad or trend...it's been around for a LONG time.

i never said it was new......i think its wrong to crop the ears of those who dont need it, no matter how long its been done.
 
and yes, i do think its backwards for a vet to be willing to crop ears solely for aesthetic reasons, but unwilling to do it solely for health reason like chronic ear infections.

Anyone here know Captain Haggerty?  Often inflammatory, here's what he has to say:
[linkhttp://www.haggertydog.com/13_cropping-docking-set.html]http://www.haggertydog.com/13_cropping-docking-set.html[/link]
 
Specific quote, for those who like data versus theory:
"In a Swedish study conducted after the docking ban, German Shorthaired Pointers showed the tail injuries in the undocked dogs. At 12-18 months of age, 27 percent of the dogs had tail injuries. At 24-30 months of age it was 35 percent, and at the end of the study it was 51percent."
 

 

ORIGINAL: but if i had a dog that was prone to recurring ear infections and the ears were the problem, i would definately have them cropped.

that`s what I mean, it`s always a decision in a special case. You said 'if i had a dog...' =  YES! A DOG, not A breed! Same for me with neutering.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d
Dogs never really "grow up", from everything I've read on doggy behavior, and watching my own dogs. They always act like wolf puppies. They never turn into adults, and don't have the capacity to.

 
I don`t understand, do you mean a "grown up" dog should be like a wolf? Dogs aren`t wolves, they even aren`t wolves that haven`t grown up. Dogs descend from wolves but are not the same biological class.
And I think every dog owner who raised a dog from puppy to adult can surely tell the difference.
 

My mom's dog, Toby, will be 13 this week. He was neutered late. He was 4 or 5, I don't remember. He was neutered because he was becoming pretty sexual, and aggressive, and he was escaping a lot. It worked. He settled down. He quite humping everything in sight. He still acts like a pup, at 13. He still plays and hops around the house and races the fence, and he plays with Em and Teenie all the time.

 
Playing and hopping around is not just an attribute of puppies, it`s an attribute of lifeforms that are higher developed such as dogs. So it is characteristic for dogs, not for puppies!
And neutering this late has no effect on health anymore. You were lucky that his behaviour changed, but no vet at all can foretell what the effect neutering of a dog  will be in behaviour. It can be "positive" or "negative", just as someone sees it. But it can have also no effect at all.
And "escaping" is no reason for neutering, it`s a reason for a higher fence.

Thank you, Glenda. I like to read your posts too. Sometimes it`s like I try to explain something and can`t find the right words and a few posts later you just say what I wanted to but obviously couldn`t do right.
And no reason for agreeing all the time, would be quite boring a forum then []
 
There still are dogs who need their ears cropped but it`s very, very rare...like Kangals who really have a job of protecting a herd from animals of prey. But all
the other dogs, the "normal" pets don`t need to because of their looks.
I would never consider buying a dog of a certain breed, knowing that this breed has problems with ears often. In that case I would encourage such "breeders" who obviously breed for looks despite health problems! So I wouldn`t buy a cocker and then get his ears cropped?!
That`s not the right way in my eyes...don`t feed such people!
 
I actually wanted to have a Leonberger or a Bernese Mountain dog but it`s so hard find a good breeder here. They all breed for just Show qualitiy. Don`t get me wrong, it fine to breed for that but never ever despite health!
GSD are great dogs if educated correctly but here it`s horrible with the whole breed. They all breed for such stupids standards here and now they`ve found that ohh, all the dogs have serious problem with their hip (it`s called HD here...?)
And as long I can`t find a breeder who will breed 1. for character, 2. for health, no matter what regulation, I will not buy a dog from this breed!

ORIGINAL: miranadobe
"In a Swedish study conducted after the docking ban, German Shorthaired Pointers showed the tail injuries in the undocked dogs. At 12-18 months of age, 27 percent of the dogs had tail injuries. At 24-30 months of age it was 35 percent, and at the end of the study it was 51percent."

I would like to read the real study not only what this person tells us. Never trust a study you haven`t manipulated yourself []

And really, ask any vet. The cases of broken tails are really rare. And "problems" with tails still can mean anything...not necessarily problems because of non-docked tails...
 
And anyone who considers a doberman with no cropped ears looking "goofy" and therefore not as beautiful as a dobe with cropped ears and therefore is pro cropping because of looks...sorry...this sort of people like this Caipt. Haggerty should experience this pain himself.
 
Not only that this procedure causes pain, it also takes away an important way of communication among dogs! Same with docked tails.

All cockers don't have ear problems, but all cockers are PRONE to them.  The show cut of the cocker has the ears left full.  I kept my cockers ears shaved on the inside and I "feathered" the outside to keep the appearance but NOT  the heaviness.  Cockers can be absolutely wonderful dogs and ear problems or not, I sure would discourage anyone from owning the breed.  Regular grooming and preventative ear MAINTAINANCE can make a world of difference.
 
I have a problem with a lot of the gsds bred here as well.  Those bred for conformation all seem to have that horribly sloped backs, and when I saw one at Westminister the poor dog was actually running on his/her hocks.  I immediately said to my hubby, "I hope that dog does NOT win the group."  For him/her to win would have just further cemented the belief that gsds are supposed to look like they have serious back/hip problems.  One group of fosters was simply from AKC parents, the second from SHOW parents (don't even ask how she got loose that pregnant and ended up a stray....)  Not a one of the pups has that severe angulation, thankfully.  Yep, in a stack there is some angulation, but THIS dog at Westminister looked crippled!

That`s what I`ve meant, I know that not all cockers or bassets or bloodhounds must have ear problems but surely are prone to. And I know some lovely cockers with great character, so beautiful but I would never want to have one as long as the clubs here will approve such standards, no they actually demand to breed for this.
In Germany they sloooowly are going back to breed gsds so that their back will "raise", go higher(?) and the hip problem will lessen but it takes so much time to repair the damage. And because it`s so complicated with all the genetic research most of the breeders are simply to dumb, lazy and most of all too old-fashioned to change.
So what do people do here? Change to Belgium Sheperds, Groenendal, Tervueren and mainly Malinois.

Regarding "cropping" a Cocker's ears because of frequent ear infections- when I worked at a vet there was a Cocker whose ear canals had been permanently closed because of chronic ear infections. I have no idea what the surgery was called, I just know that it's a solution for severe ear problems that haven't responded to other types of treatment.

I believe it's called an ablation, but that is ONLY done in major cases and the ear canal has to already be ruined.
 
My POINT was that the breeds who routinely get ear crops are NOT the breeds who have problem ears to begin with.

just an opinion but i think this string of posts is one of the best i have seen  on this entire dog.com, forum...everyone with an opinion has a good opinion.Not that I, or everyone else agrees with said opinions but they were real and genuine...

Hi Glenda,
 
I found this website because I was searching the internet regarding cropping ears and had a cocker spaniel type of dog in mind.  I see from this message board that you own cocker spaniels & hope that you (or anyone with a spaniel-type dog) can give my question some thought:
 
1) If a dog owner wanted to prevent a spaniel type dog (long floppy heavy ears...the kind that are usually prone to infection) from getting infection, what would be wrong with "clipping" (not totally cropping) perhaps the bottom few inches off?  (The vet could do it such that it would follow the natural lines of what smaller eared dogs have (i.e., not just give it a blunt straight cut off of the bottom, but a "natural" looking tapered look).  I agree that trying to make a spaniel's ear stand up would not work.  But what about keeping them drooping, but taking off much of the mass as described above so that the ear wouldn't be so heavy and prone to infection?
 
2) Do you think a vet would ever agree to doing this type of procedure on a healthy puppy with cocker spaniel ears?
 
3) Have you ever heard of this being done before?
 
Thanks.
 

ORIGINAL: glenmar

You CAN'T crop a cockers ears.  There is NOTHING in the ear structure to MAKE them stand up if they are cropped.  And I seriously doubt that you would find ANY vet willing to do such a surgery solely for preventative reasons.

I'm sorry that you think it's being done backwards "at the present time".  However it isn't "at the present time"....historically the dogs with the shorter ears are the ones that they crop.  This isn't a new fad or trend...it's been around for a LONG time.

thats actually the kind of cropping i was talking about when i was suggesting it be done in cocker spaniels.  i wasnt suggesting to make them stand up.

Sadly, all my cockers have gone to the Bridge, but yes, we did own cockers for many years.
 
The REAL problem with cockers isn't the structure of the ear so much as peoples unwillingness to GROOM those ears.
 
The ear itself isn't terribly long or ponderous.  When the ears are really trimmed, well gosh, it's just a little ear.  But the FUR is massive.  It's hard to keep the ears trimmed AND maintain the cocker "look"....and those ears are really the crowning glory on a cocker.  What we learned to do is to SHAVE the inside of the ears and really feather the outside to keep them lighter.  Truely it's the weight of all that lovely fur that keeps the ears tight to the head and the canal dark and moist.
 
Based on that, I still can't see any vet being willing to do that type of preventative surgery.  Cuz, see you can trim the end of the ear, but you can't get the owners to KEEP the fur trimmed....and the fur is the problem.  Dvet?  Do you agree?  You've got some experience with such things....just a little! []  And I don't mean with ear cropping, but with the overall cocker ear structure.