Pro or contra neutering?

Neuteruibng in the states is relatiavly routine or normal...whatever the proper term it...I guess routine is better...Licenscing etc is cheaper in most municipalities.  And unless  the dog is going to be used for   breeding and reproduction, it is generally accepted  that they  be neutered...In females, of course it prevents the repeats of estrus and in males it usually makes them a more docile , or controllable pet...It doesn't  make the male or females a dull creature, in fact their attituide etc when grown is more based on training and environment than hormones..Some people swear that dogs should be not neutered...that is their privilage but as a vet, I find the neutered  females ones have, of course, no unterine problems or infection and the males will never develope testiculat or prostate cancer...It won't effect other types of cancers but the ones it prevents is well worth the trade off

Ok, but that´s what I don`t understand, you said, in females it prevents the repeats of estrus but when I get a dog, I KNOW when I get a female and that she will get in heat, mostly twice a year.
And neutering a male and HOPING that he will be more controllable (for you can`t be sure that it will be so) isn`t  an argument, just my opinion, you can also work with your dog, getting his attention in an different way. My female dog isn`t neutered and I almost always have her attention even when she`s in heat.
I never thought that neutering makes them dull or less active, in Germany all service dogs are neutered and aren`t dull at all.
Ok, they can`t develope cancer in an organ which isn`t there anymore but that isn`t an argument either, cause so you should remove other organs that aren`t needed necessarily. And when we do this for "just" pets, why isn`t that routine for humans?
 
Don`t get me wrong, I`m not completely against neutering but not for such reasons...
 

what your presenting is your opinion and is probably true in your cases..I don't think I meant to infer  that neutering makes the male more docile and controllable...In reality it does obviously prevent certain cancers but it will not prevent all the insticts of a male...If there is a female in heat he (it) may still get the urge to take off an "Git her". Buyt it is a little  less  of a problem than in an intact male...To some people , if they are not going to bereed their pet, it is a "convenience" to neuter to prevent the 6 or so month estrus cycle and thus preven  the paossibility of her getting iimpregnated etc...I know if that happens it is carless ness on the owners palrt but it does happen.  Sometimes an intact male  will claw athrough screens and push open doors when a female is in heat in the neighborhood.  I realize these things are more of a nusicance value than  real serious problem..Agin I never "told" owners to neuter their pet but if they were going to do it i suggested it should be done at a young age,,,I used to do them when they were big enough to safly take the anesthesia, ie about  6 to 9 weeks or maybe three pounds.....but again ..it is not absolutly manditory7 that pet be neuteredwd but i beleive dmany SPCA's will insit on it because they are the ones that have to dispose of the unwanted....Not every pet owner is perfect and consciencious (sp)

Most pet owners are not responsible enough to keep their pets from becoming impregnated. Even very responsible pet owners with unaltered pets have a hard time with this. I'm sure that you know (since yours are not altered) that it's quite difficult to keep them apart when the females go in heat. Here in the US, we have a *major* problem with overpopulation, and millions of healthy, wonderful pets are euthanized every year. Any animal who is not exceptional should be altered, if only for this reason.

You can work with your dog to get his attention and keep it on you, yes, but.... I'm not sure how it is there. Here, most people do not train their dogs and don't know how to handle them properly. If you hadn't been working with your guy since you got him, training him and doing attention work, what would he be doing? Smelling everything. Seeking females in heat. Marking like a crazy fool.

forgot one item...some people say we, as vets, want to neuter to make the money.. If that were the situation then we would never do any neutering because we would make far far more money by  streating  both medically and surgically  the pyometras and the accompaning problems and the cancers that would, or could develope in the males,.

might as well add one last thing...I was in Germany in 1945 and 1946, during and after the "big war".. I was in charge of a bunch of prisoners after the war ended and this was before i had really decidedd upon vet med as a carreer..We allowed the POWs to have visits from their wives etc...After on wife visited she was crying and left..and I asked the {POW what was tthe problem...He said his wife was upset about the 8 puppies she had to dispose of... I think this might have convinced me that to be a vet was the best thing...I don;t know how she dispossed of the pupss but, at that time there was not enough food for people much less pet, so i doubt that the died  by over eating...end of discertation

ORIGINAL: dvet
If there is a female in heat he (it) may still get the urge to take off an "Git her". Buyt it is a little  less  of a problem than in an intact male

Yes, I know, our neutered male is still interested in our female dog right now but not as much as an intact one as I had to experience today *sigh*

And "convenience" is not a good reason, ok, I know we don`t live in a perfect world but it is not so hard to care for a dog, especially a female when she`s in heat. It`s only twice a year for max. 7days. I know how uncomfortable it is and I had to call the police 3 times since I have my dog cause there where males chasing us and I had a lot to do to keep them of mine. But I knew it before I decided to get her.

I used to do them when they were big enough to safly take the anesthesia, ie about  6 to 9 weeks or maybe three pounds

Why do you recommend it at that age? By then they haven`t had the chance to mature at all?

SPCA's

I don`t know what that is...sorry...or do you mean shelters?

Not every pet owner is perfect and consciencious

That is so in either country []

I'm sure that you know (since yours are not altered) that it's quite difficult to keep them apart when the females go in heat. Here in the US, we have a *major* problem with overpopulation, and millions of healthy, wonderful pets are euthanized every year. Any animal who is not exceptional should be altered, if only for this reason.

Yes it is hard...I can see both sides, cause one`s neutered, other one`s intact.
We have the same problem here, too. It is worse in Spain, Portugal, etc. and that`s one reason I accept pro neutering in that countries. They neuter them and take `em back to the streets where they can go on living cause they don`t know anything else.
But not in a country where there are hardly "street dogs" without a home.
Overpopulation among pets can be prevented by their owners. And those who are responsible enough to think about overpopulation can surely avoid getting their pet impreginated unwillingly. It is the others who abuse their dogs a "birth-machine", making money out of them. So why should the people who care for their dogs let them neuter? Overpopulation cannot be avoided by this.

I'm not sure how it is there. Here, most people do not train their dogs and don't know how to handle them properly.

People here are not that different....[]

If you hadn't been working with your guy since you got him, training him and doing attention work, what would he be doing? Smelling everything. Seeking females in heat. Marking like a crazy fool.

My male is from a shelter, they said he`s about 2-3 years old but I think he`s older. And he got neutered shortly before we got him. So I didn`t have the chance to work with him as a puppy.but I can still do that now. As long as it`s  not real stress for males ( I know, some really are in stress and won`t eat when they smell a female in heat) I woulnd`t neuter for that reason, cause smelling and marking is a dog`s nature in my opinion.
This still sounds like doing it just because it`s comfortable and convenient for the owners (don`t mean to offend anyone!!)

forgot one item...some people say we, as vets, want to neuter to make the money.. If that were the situation then we would never do any neutering because we would make far far more money by  streating  both medically and surgically  the pyometras and the accompaning problems and the cancers that would, or could develope in the males,.

Here the vets make about 60% of their money out of neutering and useless yearly vaccinations. And what`s really interesting is that one of the main arguments PRO neutering here is eventually developing cancer in FEMALES, not in males.

The incessant marking, sniffing, and the scent of an intact male are reason enough for me. I can't stand the crazy boy dog stuff. I don't like it. Marking in my house is unacceptable, and it's something that an intact boy will do. Yes, that is a matter of convenience. Boys *do* get testicular cancer, perianal tumors, and prostate issues at a *much* higher rate when  they're not neutered. I've seen all three, and know how painful they are. They shorten the dogs' lives. It's very sad to see.

I've also been present for a pyometria spay. It's disgusting, and the poor girl was seriously ill. I've been present while a Poodle was spayed. A pup had been stuck in her birth canal for 48 hours. The pup had to be decapitated to save the mother, and the remaining pups. It was horrible. I've seen a *lot* of mammory tumors. I've known dogs who died from mammory tumors, which are easily prevented by early spaying.

I've also known dogs who escaped, to mate, and were hit by cars or faught with other male dogs and were severely injured. I know of a dog (the father of a friend's dogs) who attacked a *much* larger dog and had to have plastic surgery to put his face back on. Why? There was a bitch in heat. They weren't even near her. She was a puppy, at the time, and is the daughter of the smaller dog, so he wouldn't have been allowed to mate with her in the first place.

My dogs will always be altered. For their health, first, and my convenience, second.

Wait a minute here -- this is missing the ENTIRE point of spay/neuter! 
 
The only one that even 'touched' on it was the comment about the woman having to dispose of unwanted puppies.  Let's call it a nice name and call it euthanasia.  Let's call it by its real name and call it *killing*. 
 
The reasons to spay and neuter are many -- but about the biggest is to prevent millions (and I do mean *millions*) of dogs having to be put to death (beyond the millions already having to be put to death) because people just aren't responsible enough to control their intact dogs and preventing them from breeding indiscriminately.  Unfortunately Americans are notoriously bad for not preventing pregancy.  It's an issue of valuing life enough to prevent the necessity of "disposing" of unwanted animals.  It's already an enormous problem.
 
Then we can move on to the health benefits of spay/neuter and the fact that altered animals tend to live about 25% longer than un-altered ones. 
 
My husband is Scottish and I understand only too well that Americans tend to feel differently than elsewhere -- however this tends to be changing as other cultures are also experiencing huge pet growth and the resultant need for 'disposing' of too many animals that are born.  It's so much kinder and humane to simply prevent the problem.

The heat cycle does NOT last 7 days....more like 21 or longer and they are often MORE fertile after the bleeding has stopped.  PLEASE be careful with your intact female for more than that one week.
 
Yes, even responsible owners can have whoops litters.  Stuff happens no matter HOW careful you are.  Stuff like ties taking place right through the crate door, stuff like a foster child letting your bitch outside to be with her "friend" cuz they are both whining when YOU run to the laundry room to start more of the INFANT foster childs laundry.  And, by the way THESE accidents happened when I had TWO dogs, not a bunch, just so no one thinks I have too many dogs to keep them safe.
 
And, testicular cancer is far more common in intact males.  Cancers of the reproductive organs, including mammary cancers are far more common in intact females.  And then there is the danger of pio in unspayed females.
 
It isn't terribly convenient to juggle spay/nueters around everyones schedule and then to have to keep a young dog QUIET for a week to ten days.  BUT, it's better for their HEALTH.  I'm not that concerned about an intact male being more difficult to handle...that's not been an issue for us.  Thor was over 2 when he was nuetered...I'm thinking closer to three.  I've never had behavior issues that I couldn't work with...well except that early morning yodel fest they like to have. [] Now Thor IS the only one of my boys who marks and he can mark to his hearts content OUTSIDE.  But that is not acceptable in my house whether it's in his nature or not.  Unlike Jennie, I don't smell any difference between an intact and nuetered male.
 
Surgically altering my dogs is most definately NOT for my convenience.  It is for their own health and safety AND yep, to prevent more pups from dying in shelters.  If MY bitch whelps a litter of 8 or 9 purebred pups, that means 8 or 9 OTHER pups will die in shelters.  I work with a no-kill shelter, but I still foster animals that others have "thrown away".  My SON works in the county shelter and tells absolutely HAIR RAISING stories of the young animals who are brought in.
 
Until every single person who takes a cute little pup home makes a LIFETIME commitment to that animal, our nation will continue to have too many animals for too few homes.  I ONE time helped out at a kill shelter on "the day".  Never again....and all I did was spend time with the dogs waiting on death row for their turn to die.  You have said that in YOUR country you have dogs living on the streets.  That's not acceptable.  EVERY dog should have a loving, forever home.
 
I don't LIKE early spay/nueter, but by golly I support early spay/nueter for shelter pups.  I support the shelters NOT letting dogs be adopted until they are altered.  I support the responsible breeders who place pups in homes ONLY with a spay/nueter contract and who collect a HEFTY spay/nueter deposit.  And I loath the scum of the earth who breed mixes to create a new 'designer breed' and the puppy millers who force dogs to live year after year after year in cages, cranking out litter after litter of unhealthy babies who are ripped from their mothers LONG before they should be and mass shipped to pet stores to be sold to those fools who fall in love and "impulse buy", and I loath the back yard breeders who just let "nature take it's course" without any health testing for genetic conditions common to the breed, without any confirmation that their dog is of a QUALITY to breed, and then don't give the pups proper vaccines, worming and vet care cuz that might cut into their PROFITS.......and the idiots who don't train their dogs.  There is much that I don't LIKE in our world, but spaying and nuetering our pets to safeguard their health is not one of them.

Unlike Jennie, I don't smell any difference between an intact and nuetered male.

I must have a funny nose. You aren't the first person who's said that you can't smell a difference. I can smell an unaltered male without touching him. YUCK!

im definately PRO spay/neutering because of the health and population benefits.  the added conveniences are just a bonus.  jake is getting neutered in a week or so and i cant wait.  i would not have it done if it wasnt in the best interest of my dog and dogs everywhere.
 
i know just about everyone disagrees with me but i see nothing wrong with  "designer breeds".  people have always invented new breeds i dont see how its any different, and they are good dogs.  if done in a responsible manner just like all breeding it doesnt add to the population problem.

Re:  
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""I used to do them when they were big enough to safly take the anesthesia, ie about  6 to 9 weeks or maybe three pounds
[/blockquote]

Why do you recommend it at that age? By then they haven`t had the chance to mature at all? ""
 
 
I know every authority can tell  the difference between a dog spayed early and a dog spayed late but I just couldnt do it...I hear on this board all the thing that are supposed to  change and not change in the maturing of a dog..But if it were that obvious I would never have had to ask new clients, when they came in with older dogs, if they were spayed or neutered or not...
even if the were no testicles showing, there still could be an element of doubt...Maybe some people could tell but after 50 years I still cannot be positive...course, though maybe i may be a little slow but i wasn't slow for the entire 50 years   , i hope

See, Dvet and I do disagree on early spay/nueter, but that's ok.  He has the years of experience doing it and I have the years of experience NOT doing it.  But, with shelter animals it just flat HAS to be done.  You simply cannot trust people to take care of business.  When we were breeding cockers I did place on a spay/nueter contract and I charged a HEFTY deposit.  I still had folks that I had to call to remind that, gee, FiFi is going on 9 months old and you haven't sent me proof of spay yet so I can release your deposit. The deposit was slightly MORE than the cost of the spay!!  Even folks with the best intentions don't always put this HIGH on the priority list and then when the first heat comes and goes they are determined to get it done before they have to deal with it again...and they forget.  And these folks are carefully selected, excellent home, responsible owners.
 
In our country, unfortunately we are a nation of folks who want instant gratification,  and we are a highly "throw away" society.  Not just pets, but stuff, and marriages as well.