Enlarged heart in senior

I know i should. But there aren't many holistic vets here and I'd prefer to see one who will not just drug her excessively doing harm to other organs. My vet doesn't seem to concerned at the moment so I don't know if I'm worrying too much or is it my gut feel telling me to do something about it asap. I thought these supplements are not harmful and have no side effects. It's so so worrying what she could possibly suffer from. 

Tina this ***IS*** a vet who has put her on the Co-Q-10.   Debbie is in Singapore.  It's a TCVM vet (i.e., a "regular" vet who has also taken extra education in TCVM - herbology, acupuncture, nutrition, etc.)

 Debbie -- the Co-Q-10 will help and 65 mg twice a day is a good start altho you can double that usually but check with your TCVM vet.  Mine always wants to use hawthornberry, but it might not be available there. 

DO make sure the vet has a list of all you're giving Alphie -- so she/he can account for it with what they're giving.  If the vet *wants* Alphie on hawthornberry and you can't find it, let me know. I can send you some.  Even my "regular" vet has always had me do hawthornberry (Socks,  Billy and Kee Shu all took that, as do I).  If you can find it in bulk do that -- 1/4 tsp = a regular sized capsule usually.  It kinda tastes like dusty strawberries -- Alphie probably won't mind it in his food -- mine never do.

I've had three different dogs with enlarged hearts over the years -- since you know about it and can support the heart with whatever supplements this vet gives you, it's **NOT** at all horrible.  Particularly not in a dog the size of a golden.  It was good you asked for the x-rays -- given where you are the vet probably wouldn't have suggested it otherwise.  You're a good dog mom!!!!

She probably does SOME of the acupuncture for heart points & that helps a whole lot.  The di gui pi should help the joints (joints & liver support if it's like the one of Dr. Xie's.)

If it's a heart cough she doesn't want it suppressed probably -- call and ask!  But if you just want to soothe her, just plain honey & lemon is easy and soothing.  I used to make it for Socks ALL the time -- *smile* but she was picky about what kind of honey!!!    Get a honey that is locally produced if you can.  I used to just use a plastic spoon. 

HERE a vet can do a heart work-up right in their office, and then the information (the EKG, etc) is sent by phone to the nearest vetschool where the cardiologist reads it over the phone to the vet.  I would think they'd do that there but not sure who would read it.  It would be worth asking the vet -- the vet will know if it's easily done there.  This is something they've been able to do for about the last 5-6 years here -- I had one done on Billy every 6 months.  It wasn't available back when we had Ms. Socks.

IMO, sometimes you have to use traditional Western medicine to help your dogs. I realize you recently lost a dog to IMHA and you are gun-shy about meds, but there is no cure-all for anything with one type of medicine or another. The herbals are supposed to be a supplement, but even they can interact with other herbs or meds in a way that is not helpful.

If you have access to a book called "Four Paws, Five Directions", it's an excellent reference. I still wouldn't do anything without vet's guidance, however.

calliecritturs

Tina this ***IS*** a vet who has put her on the Co-Q-10.   Debbie is in Singapore

Yes, I am aware of that. I suggested a 2nd veterinary opinion. Not everything that works for one dog works for another. IMO, advice on the internet is not comparable to hands on medical advice, whether it is Eastern or Western. And one should always be an advocate for the creatures in one's care.

 I just went to a presentation from Dr. Carol Vavra who does is certified in acupuncture and Chinese herbals.  She made it clear that Eastern and Western medicine has different approaches, but it's unwise to go to one extreme or the other, instead to use the tools from both for the best outcome.  Sounds like this vet is not an extremist, either, if they're using x-rays and other diagnostic tools along with generally accepted herbals or supplements.

miranadobe

 I just went to a presentation from Dr. Carol Vavra who does is certified in acupuncture and Chinese herbals.  She made it clear that Eastern and Western medicine has different approaches, but it's unwise to go to one extreme or the other, instead to use the tools from both for the best outcome.  Sounds like this vet is not an extremist, either, if they're using x-rays and other diagnostic tools along with generally accepted herbals or supplements.

That's exactly why the Chi Institute tries so hard to educate vets to work **with** each other.  So the overall care remains balanced.  Literally a lot of TCVM vets here call themselves "Complimentary Medicine" or "Integrative Medicine" -- they don't WANT to be the only one treating - they want to work *with* another vet so the care is balanced.  And if they are in an area where they can't do that then they try to "integrate" both themselves.  I've heard Dr. Vavra is really good.

Debbie has a hard time in Singapore.  It's pretty unusual there to give veterinary care at all -- so she was pretty frustrated when she lost Axl to IMHA.   This is a new vet and this one seems much better, but now she's having to go back and re-address everything for both of her remaining goldens. 

 ((( hugs ))) I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this so soon after losing Axi. Supplementing with taurine may be helpful, but you should check with your vet first. For large dogs, you can give 500 mg a day. Taurine is produced by the body by combining 2 amino acids, cysteine and methionine, so I can't suggest a food source for it. You're probably already giving them fish oil, but if not, it's also good for the heart.

Yes, it IS very frustrating to find a vet here who doesn't simply pump our pups with synthetic drugs. I had a really good vet who had a balanced mix of western and chinese medicine with acupuncture when these guys were pups.. she left for Sydney for good and ever since, this Japanese vet has been a good alternative. Actually we didn't have an appointment with Dr S yesterday, but after lunch when Alphie started to cry and pace, I decided not to leave it, but the vet wasn't opened for lunch, so I took her to an emergency vet nearby just in case it was bloat or something urgent. The vet wanted to order multiple x-rays.. "multiple" didn't go well with me, so I told him to do a biochem instead. He unwillingly discharged her and made me sign an indemnity. This made me panic even more. So at 3pm I called to squeeze myself in for my usual vet. She knows I'm not too comfortable with western drugs, but she still did prescribe some when it was needed. Though she didn't think there was a need for an X-ray when she listened to Alphie's heart, I insisted on just one because what we can't hear doesn't mean it isn't there. She showed me the x-ray, explained bits and that her chest cavity was clear, no bloat, kidney of ok size and shape, except her heart a little large. Her biochem was good, so no infection, and liver and kidney are ok. She told me to start on CoQ10 if I wasn't already doing so, but didn't mention anything about L-Carnitine or Taurine or Hawthornberry, though I've read up since. She also went ahead with the acupuncture session, and told me Alphie's pulse was stronger than the last time. She is aware of the supplements I'm giving them, and I'll arm myself with questions of contraindications when I see her next week. And we've scheduled ultrasound but that doctor (from France) is only in september.

Carrie, the body sore, tendon/cartilage, and di gu pi san are from Dr Xie, jing tang, she ordered them in for me. We'll have to see if this panting is partly due to her joint pain as well. Alphie is still pretty interested in walks, or if i throw a kong she'll go retrieve it happily, but she tires too easily, so I keep it to slow walks. Her perpetual panting scares me... kind of reminds me of Axl's breathing when he was heavily on preds

Another thing I suspect, if it could be a laryngeal disease instead, the dog would pant heavily too, but that might not explain heart enlargement.

jessies_mom

 ((( hugs ))) I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this so soon after losing Axi. Supplementing with taurine may be helpful, but you should check with your vet first. For large dogs, you can give 500 mg a day. Taurine is produced by the body by combining 2 amino acids, cysteine and methionine, so I can't suggest a food source for it. You're probably already giving them fish oil, but if not, it's also good for the heart.

 

Yup they do get fish oil.. and fish, canned sardines occasionally as well. And yeah I want to check that with her, because I know that with myself, when I take chinese medicine, I can't take western medication together, there has to be a break in between, 2 hrs or so. then again, supplements  like SAMe, is that medication? She okays my supplements list, but almost never gives me a good amount to give, just tells me to give SAMe with milk thistle (how much is too much or too little?) But anyway with the x-ray yesterday and frontline application last week, I'm giving them 200mg twice a day for milk thistle.

Thanks Janice, I'm gonna jot that down and ask her.

Lee debbie

I know that with myself, when I take chinese medicine, I can't take western medication together, there has to be a break in between, 2 hrs or so.

For me (as in me, personally) I have to usually take the Chinese meds with food but I take them with everything else with no problem. 

The Sam-e in this case will help the arthritis -- it's also a liver detox, but it's very often sold here as an aid to arthritis.

1/4 tsp of milk thistle (1 cap) given twice a day is a good dose of milk thistle when you aren't doing anything hugely to tax the liver.  That does is just good liver support.   since you're giving the SAM-e as well you're probably doing it fine.

calliecritturs

The Sam-e in this case will help the arthritis -- it's also a liver detox, but it's very often sold here as an aid to arthritis.

1/4 tsp of milk thistle (1 cap) given twice a day is a good dose of milk thistle when you aren't doing anything hugely to tax the liver.  That does is just good liver support.   since you're giving the SAM-e as well you're probably doing it fine.

 

That's what Dr S said about SAM-e as well, so hopefully with the chinese herbs we'll get it right. I ordered a non-alcoholic tincture of milk thistle, the one you recommended was out of stock, also ordered cell food SAMe coz the life extention one vet prescribed, Alphie chews it and spits it out. 

Is it a human SAM-e?  Most of those are enteric which doesn't work well in dogs.  "life extension" isn't a brand I know.  Vets here use NutraMax Labs (Denosyl is the SAM-e, Marin is the milk thistle) but you guys may not be able to get it in Singapore.

You may want to look at the pages on giving meds.  You can train them to "just swallow" (put the pill in something slippery -- like baby food meat or pate or even like ricotta cheese).  don't use "sticky" stuff (like cream cheese is pretty sticky). 

Then I also teach them "chew it good" (I hang onto a piece of meat so they nibble it from my fingers). 

It's almost like teaching a dog TO bark to teach them NOT to bark.  But it really does work.  don't just put meds in the food loose -- ultimately they will decide not to take it or chew a pill you really don't WANT them to chew.  I'd imagine SAM-e could be nasty.

The CellFood one is good tho -- maybe 5-10 drops to start?  See how that works.  I've never used it for arthritis.

I found out SAMe is not available here OTC, and the vet's office only gives it through prescription. It's not too common here. Life extention brand also has a dog version of it, but vet gave the human one, 400mg.. was surprised especially when they had no liver issues, but i guess it's due to their arthritis. And if they get better *I* should probably start it too for my joint pains too.

Alphie usually inhales her food, so I cover it at the top layer of where her food attack usually starts. Still failed. I'll look at how to give it. Ashton, I've used everything, all sorts of stuff to wrap his pills.. he puts them in his mouth, does a little camel grinding and turns away sheepishly and trots away with stuff dropping out his mouth - ie. the pills.