Spay complications- need advice

And thank you, I'm really trying not to beat myself up, but I just see this tiny little dog that I'm supposed to protect and now she's sick. I just hope she gets better soon, I hate seeing her like this and I feel helpless. :(

That makes me feel a little better and I guess it is better it comes out. I have not taken her temp but the vet did and she hasn't had a fever any of the times I took her back. I don't have any experience with the heat process. Do dogs bleed a lot when they are in heat or should it be just a few drops every now and then. That's what really is worrying me right now, it just seems like too much for a little dog, and it's like a brown red color.

awright

Do dogs bleed a lot when they are in heat or should it be just a few drops every now and then. That's what really is worrying me right now, it just seems like too much for a little dog, and it's like a brown red color

 

Brown red is the color of "old blood" and it almost never concerns doctors. Old blood is blood that is decaying and has been there for a bit..IOW the source has dried up or been addressed. NEW blood...bright red arterial blood or blood that looks like coffee grounds can concern docs. Blood that flows without stopping..etc.

Bitches in season typically get a brown red colored discharge that can also be a brighter red color. As the season progresses the color lightens (sometimes) to a paler shade and some even tend towards a yellowish cast.

As to how much? Some bitches bleed next to none at all, or keep themselves so clean you'd never know it. Others? It looks like murder was done every time they arise from a prone position. My big girl Cleo is a bleeder so she wears diapers around her seasons. It's just like with women...we are all different and no two cycles are identical...one woman can get thru on pantyliners while another needs depends..LOL!

No fever is an EXCELLENT sign.

Ok so I took her to the new vet, and now I'm really confused. This vet did no tests except took her temperature which was normal, and then came back in with an estimate for 1700 to open layla back up and see what is going on. When asked why she said she is a belt and suspenders type and would rather be safe then sorry. I told her in my opinion opening up a dog again for no reason seemed unsafe. When I told her what my vet said she would respond with something completely different, for instance she said the only reason blood would come out of her vagina is if she had a bladder infection. Then she said dogs should not bleed from there at all even if they are in heat at the time of the surgery, which I know is wrong some blood still has to clear out. Then she said that the only time fluid drains from the incision is if it is infected, so I asked her about serous fluid from a seroma which my vet thinks it is and she changed the subject. I don't think she even knew what that is! I was really hoping this would clear things up but it did nothing but confuse me more. And isn't 1700 a bit excessive to just open her up considering It was only 500 for spay biopsy and pathology? I don't know where to go from here. Should I just listen to my vet and see if it clears up??

any advise would help. Also does anyone have any experience with tumors in the breast?

She doesn't have pyometra. There has to be a uterus there for pyometra to occur, & since she's spayed, there's no uterus. No uterus = no pyometra.

Bleeding from the vulva is pretty normal, but shouldn't be excessive. There shouldn't be that much blood/discharge still there. Each day, the discharge should be less than the previous day.

The leakage from the suture line would worry me. Occassionally, serum pockets do form, but it's usually due to poor suture technique or excessive exercise, not just because.

If this were my dog, I would probably have someone open her back up & do an exploratory on her to see if there is an issue. Strange things happen, even when the original surgeon did everything right. That said, for $1700, I would take my dog to a board certified surgeon, & have the surgery done. It definitely would not be placed in the hands of a general practitioner for that price.

I really hope that you get answers for your dog soon. It sucks to see them hurting, & not be able to fix it.

BEVOLASVEGAS

She doesn't have pyometra. There has to be a uterus there for pyometra to occur, & since she's spayed, there's no uterus. No uterus = no pyometra.

You're right -- I was thinking secondary infection (altho usually if they FOUND pyo during a spay they'd continue with antibiotics for a good while and my thinking was I wouldn't be sure they'd caught it during the spay).  That's what happens when I post when I'm tired.  My mix gets all talked up.

 

the only thing she did was jump off the bed once before i could grab her and then like i said i fell asleep for 30min and she probably licked it a little. I'm terrified to put her back under again and definitely would not do it with the new vet i saw. She seemed rather ignorant for a veterinarian. I know my vet would not charge me anywhere near that, but all they say is that everything is ok and to give it time and it will clear up. And believe me I have really bugged them, so they must really think nothing is wrong. Problem is I think something is wrong..just so very confused. Maybe I will go to yet another vet tomorrow or friday if no one is open tomorrow. Just don't know what is the right thing here and I literally hold someones life in my hands...

BEVOLASVEGAS

If this were my dog, I would probably have someone open her back up & do an exploratory on her to see if there is an issue. Strange things happen, even when the original surgeon did everything right. That said, for $1700, I would take my dog to a board certified surgeon, & have the surgery done. It definitely would not be placed in the hands of a general practitioner for that price

 

The only reason I would hesitate to do this is that I think opening a dog up that MIGHT have an infection seems a lot of risk to me. You could spread the infection or exacerbate it.I would want the dog on antibiotics and have some pretty clean bloodwork and have her be on good ground with eating drinking and the bodily functions. If she is compromised at all, well I dunno that I would risk it. Is it routine to operate on dogs that have infections? I know with Ellie they wanted nothing to do with surgery until she was really well past that bit and no necrotic tissue remained...

If all signs, bloodwork, behavior, temperature etc point to NO infection then I suppose exploratory is an option...

My gut feeling is a lot of this is because this bitch is older and was in season or nearly so when this was done. There is just going to be more inflammation and ooze afterwards in that situation I think...

 

ok, she has started eating and a LOT. Is that normal? She has never had an appetite like this. She is drinking pretty good out of the syringe, she actually licks it now to try to get the water out. As of this morning I don't see anything oozing out of the incision, but it is a little red around each suture and the sutures seem to be kind of tight, like the skin is kinda of puffing out and the suture is lower. I don't know if that makes sense. It doesn't look terrible though. I will try to get a picture on here. The only thing is that the vaginal bleeding is not stopping or reducing in amount? Is there any way that something inside could be bleeding and it's coming out down there after it has gotten old(cuz it is brown red)? Also it seems it comes out more when she stretches. I want to be optimistic because the incision leaking stopped, but this still worries me. The vet said as long as the blood is not bright red she is not concerned. It's not gushing, but sometimes like when she stretches it will drip out for a minute and it is kind of gooey(sorry to be gross). I have kept her completely immobile except to pee, and she is still taking her antibiotics.

calliecritturs

BEVOLASVEGAS

She doesn't have pyometra. There has to be a uterus there for pyometra to occur, & since she's spayed, there's no uterus. No uterus = no pyometra.

You're right -- I was thinking secondary infection (altho usually if they FOUND pyo during a spay they'd continue with antibiotics for a good while and my thinking was I wouldn't be sure they'd caught it during the spay).  That's what happens when I post when I'm tired.  My mix gets all talked up.

 

 

 

 Actually stump pyometra can and does occur in spayed bitches.

 Dogs can get a stump pyo, but I wouldn't expect it so soon after a spay.  I'm guessing she's oozing due to being spayed while in season. I can't say how common it is, as the clinic I work at tries at all costs to not spay while a dog is in season..and the last female I had spayed was Newt, who was not in season at the time. She was starting to get a bit of a 'fluidy' uterus, which they saw when they got in there,..so she was on antibiotics afterward just in case.

 I would say that if her vaginal discharge isn't lessening by the middle of the week to pursue it further. Assuming, of course, that she doesn't have any other symptoms like a fever or pale mucous membranes. I'd start with bloodwork though

 

ok went to vet AGAIN, and I'm a little peeved. vet was visibly irritated that I was still worried. If I pay you 1000 in a month i would think you could listen to my concerns without attitude. I guess I am being a bit of a pest, but this is serious, better safe then sorry. Ok so did bloodwork, kidney test, and vaginal smear, all were OK. So vet did this all for free even though I offered to pay, I guess so I will stop calling lol. He said her stump was much bigger than normal due to the heat and it would take time to stop bleeding. Again they offered to board her for free and I refused which they got irritated about. If it was 24/7 sure, but only one person comes one time after they close, i don't think so. So also got the biopsy back 2 DAYS AGO and didn't tell me because they didn't want to upset me???? Her tumor is benign, but she said it WILL turn cancerous and has to come out. Then they said the only way they will do that surgery is if I board her for at least a week afterwards!!! Was I being unreasonable to worry so much or are they being big jerks? 

awright

Was I being unreasonable to worry so much or are they being big jerks? 

Probably a bit of both -- which happens when the vet IS being a bit of a jerk and the owner/guardian cares and feels blown off.

awright

Her tumor is benign, but she said it WILL turn cancerous and has to come out. Then

I think you're incredulous here??  But trust me -- THIS **CAN** HAPPEN.  In fact that's exactly what happened  with Billy last week.  We (me and 3 different vets) have been keeping an eye on a nipple that's been red and a bit swollen -- it wasn't growing by leaps and bounds and it didn't feel "rooted" or anything bad -- it just .... looked too weired. 

Billy's an IMHA survivor so he's NOT a candidate for spurious surgery.  He also has some serious heart stuff (a grade 3/4 murmur) as a result OF the IMHA.  So we've been monitoring it and he went in last week for his semi-annual heart workup (EEG, etc.) and the vet decided it was TIME for this thing to come off.

They had to do the EEG twice because he was skipping heartbeats (not a great surgical candidate) but eventually they decided it was a go and the risk was worth it.  We sent the tissue to pathology and literally that IS the answer we got .... that it was benign BUT it was ripe to BE cancer so if any other nipples (they already removed 3 that day) look weird -- get rid of them NOW.  That literally was what the pathology report said.

Did they give her antibiotics??  That would have been logical.

It's tough when you begin to lose faith in a vet -- you likely need to begin to look for someone who is a bit better at explaining and a bit more patient. 

You might also feel a bit more comfortable literallyl adding a vet who does alternative stuff -- like TCVM (acupuncture, etc.).  You'll get diet help as well as a bit more proactive approach.  It might work well for you.  Feel free to email me if I can help at all.

 

Thank you for responding. I agree it was prob a bit of both, i am definitely a worrywart, but I do feel uncomfortable with my vet now and might need a new one. Might try talking to them first. And I must have worded that wrong, i absolutely believe it will turn cancerous. Was just hoping no more surgeries for her :(  And they changed her antibiotic from amoxicillin to clavamox. Since you have experience with this, do you know what it means when it is benign but will be cancerous? Does it have abnormal cells already but they don't spread or are they normal? Thanks