What would YOU have done?

    • Gold Top Dog

    What would YOU have done?

    Yesterday on New Years Day I had my annual Open House.  I tried to change me "game plan" on what to do with the TONS of food I make... tons of appitizers and pizza... crock pots of some dishes... and all the Christmas cookies, nuts and candy...and things like that.  I usually set up bar in the laundry room...a ton of food in the hallway of my house on a couple of long narrow tables, and keep most of the hot food in the kitchen.   I knew Gibson was going to be a problems so I decided to put most of the food in the laundry room and kind of keep the door shut a little...but kept the crocks and warming trays in kitchen on sink.    In the end.....after people were here...I ended bringing most of the stuff from the laundry room into the kitchen and set it on the table which seats mostly ladies while the hubbies are in the living room watching the Rose Bowl,,,afterall this IS Ohio and OSU was playing.

    Long story short.....after some people left, and at one point no one was at the kitchen table and I was dumping some garbage....Gibby was eating most of a whole dish of fudge.  YIKES!  The good thing was...it was half regular fudge and half white chocolate with mint.  Luckily the white w/mint was closest to the end because he ate most of it...I would have to guess about 30 pieces of maybe 1 inch cut pieces. Let me tell you...that mint was STRONG.  He was loving it.   

    In the end he looked peaked but hard to tell with these Danes that eyes turn kind of red and droopy when they are tired...and he didn't get a nap at all that day with being excited with all the company. But about 11:30 PM he went and drank a ton of water which he doesn't usually do....and immediately barfed it up....... it was about the worst smelling dog barf I have ever cleand up......sour like a humans with a hint of mint. YUK!  I tried to give him a Pepto Bismol cherry flavored pill.....and then tried a Tums..... he would eat neither...and usually does like both.  We all went to bed and I laid in bed until about 4 AM worrying about him.

    Now that its over....thinking wonder what I should have done. If he would have gotten the chocolate side,,,I know I would have called ER but I talked myself into thinking the white would be okay.  Oh..to add to my worry..is ER is about 45 min. away and we are under a snow storm warning.....  so didn't want to be stupid.

    What would you guys have done?    He did have breakfast this morning...and looks okay but not sure. Except again...he has to be really tired so not so playful this morning. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I would have induced vomiting with hydrogen peroxide.  Hope he has no ill effects.

    • Gold Top Dog

    White chocolate: 200 ounces per pound of body weight. It takes 250 pounds of white chocolate to cause signs of poisoning in a 20-pound dog, 125 pounds for a 10-pound dog.

    I agree with Jackie, that much sugar alone would have done it for me. I am going to guess that he is coming down off a sugar high and that is why is not real playful.

    Gibby, shame shame you good lookin thing.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'd call up the vets place or the emergency vet and see what they'd want me to do. Hope your pup feels better soon. :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Truley

    White chocolate: 200 ounces per pound of body weight. It takes 250 pounds of white chocolate to cause signs of poisoning in a 20-pound dog, 125 pounds for a 10-pound dog.

    I agree with Jackie, that much sugar alone would have done it for me. I am going to guess that he is coming down off a sugar high and that is why is not real playful.

    So that would mean that the white chocolate wouldn't cause a problem, he weighs about 105 lbs. 

    Yeah...that sugar content in fudge is a killer.  Oh........and that horrible mint.  

    I thought about the peroxide...but when he was much younger and got hold of a Chex Mix dish complete with white chocolate and some M & Ms  in it....AND the whole plastic back complete with twistie holding it together,,, I called ER.  They said that the would suggest peroxide to make him vomit EXCEPT for the fact that he is a Dane and they don't like to ever suggest that for a Dane because of bloat. So I dropped that idea. Again....regular chocolate and I would have had to have a total different attitude.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I would have freaked and called the vet at least Smile But my girls are ALOT smaller

    Never a dull moment with Gibby is there?

    • Gold Top Dog
    1. Smacked myself for putting fudge where he could get to it.
    2. Smacked myself again for not paying more attention to where he was.
    3. Prepared for him to bounce around for a while on a sugar high, & then crash once the sugar had worked it's way through.
    4. Prayed for no diarrhea in my house overnight.

    Since it wasn't a huge amount of chocolate there's no way in heck I would have induced vomitting on a big, deep chested dog.  Having a deep chested dog who has bloated before leaves me only giving peroxide in what I believe might be a life or death situation for him.  This was not one of those situations.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Oh Dyan don't you hate it when they eat this stuff.  I don't know much about it but when Hailie ate the gum last week my Vets office had me call posion control first.  Posision control was awesome and gave me some good informaiton and measurement to assure me Hailie didn't take a lethal dose of artificial sweatner but they mentioned to me that the reason Chocolate is dangerous to dog is the "sweatner".  So my thoughs are white or choclate if the sweatner is in it, it could be dangerous.  theobromine is equally as dangeous but usually the quanity necessary to be dangerous is found in bakers chocolate.  However, they need to ingest ALOT of sweatner before it is truely dangerous and less theobromine.  They also told me if I wanted assurance and wanted to induce vomiting to do it now, not later.  so next time induce vomiting right away and call posion control for reassurance.  With my dog Duke many years ago I use to share Oreos with him all the time and had no idea it could be dangeous until people started telling me about chocolate and dogs.  He never had a problem, now I am thinking its becasue it was not choc with sweatner.  The darker the choc. the more sweatner generally.

    Son't smack yourself it to late and you should monitor for 12 hours after that your home free.Wink  He is a big a dog and it dosen't sound like he ate enough to be dangeous just make him sick to his belly.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well...called my vet clinic....Dr said since he did it last night its too late to do anything about it except watch him and look for signs of legargy and/or lots of vomiting.  He ate his breakfast hours ago...and he didn't get sick. But legargy....heck he is really tired because of all the company anyway so that is hard to tell. So I will watch him carefully for a while....not that I don't anyway. 

    Here is a really neat little thing I picked up on the internet to save incase you need to worry about your dog and chocolate. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/10/pets/chocolate-chart-interactive.  You change the weight to the weight of your dog and the kind of chocolate he ate.

    Yeah...kicking myself in the butt for him getting a hold of that chocolate.....there was a couple of people sitting there when I just quickly ran to dump the garbage into the big trash can in the garage, besides the fact that Gibby was in the living room where all the guys including my dh was.  I do believe that Mr. Gibson took that moment to run into the kitchen to see what he could get!  Brat!  

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    luvmyswissy
      He never had a problem, now I am thinking its becasue it was not choc with sweatner.  The darker the choc. the more sweatner generally.

    No -- chocolate is its own problem -- theobromide is the "poison" - but the basic deal is that when the dog's liver processes the chocolate it literally turns into a substance VERY LIKE COCAINE.  The darker the chocolate the more theobromine.  It has NOTHING to do with sweener.  It has everything to do with the concentration of theobromine.  Something like Oreos is mostly flour, sugar, etc. -- there's very little concentrated cocoa or chocolate.  And cocoa is on a whole different level than just plain old cheap chocolate (i.e., cocoa in the can like you'd use for baking -- it's got more 'dark' chocolate than you'd realize because it's not sweet yet).

    "sweetener" -- there are various Sweeteners that dog's can't have.  Xylitol is the current major problem because so many gums/diet things use it.  ANY artificial sweetner (including Stevia, which most folks don't realize alters blood pressure) can be a problem, but xylitol even in *very* small quantitites can shut down a dog's kidneys.  At this point I don't have *any* artifiicial sweetener in the house, particularly not in my purse -- the risk of somebuddy getting it is just plain too high.

    I'm going to get on my soapbox just a bit here -- but I hope it will help someone's dog.

    **BEWARE** -- when you just 'call' an emergency vet you are NOT talking to a vet.  You are typically talking to a receptionist and that is usually not safe advice.  Now there are some that are good, but some that are NOT (like someone's e-vet receptionist told them to induce vomiting after a dog had eaten a glass ornament??? YIPE -- BAD ADVICE!!!!!).  Don't rely on the receptionist for anything other than "how long will I have to wait if we come NOW".  Their stock answer really ought to be "come in and let the vet check".

    Theobromine causes  **liver damage**.    So it is something that can be built up -- for those folks who are convinced that their dogs "don't have a problem with" chocolate because they don't SEE any hyperness, etc. -- they're foolish.  Because it DOES damage the liver, even in small amounts, and frequency can make the damage cumulative.

     The size of the dog, the concentration of chocolate/theobromine, the amount of sugar -- these will all impact how the dog will respond. 

    DYAN -- FOR GIBBY -- I would give him milk thistle for a few weeks.  The "damage" that is done isn't erased quickly -- and it takes a few weeks for the liver to regenerate itself. 

    Mint -- not a bad thing at all -- in fact I deliberately give my dogs mint.  It's a good anti-oxidant and it's a good tummy settler.  It's VERY likely that most of the gut damage that could have been done was mitigated by the mint in the fudge.  The combination of the mint with the stomach acid is likely what eventually made his gut get rid of what it couldn't process. 

    In honesty?  I would NOT avoid vomiting just because a dane is prone to bloat.  I would be fully prepared to RACE to the e-vet but if he'd eaten something TRULY toxic (like acetaminaphen) - it would be less risky to induce vomiting and deal with the potential for bloat, than to kill his kidneys by allowing the body to process something truly toxic.

    ALL OF US SHOULD KNOW what the big bad nasty stuff is poison-wise.  Things like theobomine yes -- but things that can KILL (and kill FAST and with very little ingested) are things like Tylenol products, various kinds of rat poison (mouse, rat, snail/slug poisons), antifreeze, pseudophedrine, any NSAIDs (aspirin, ibuprophen), or ANY medicine taken in quantity, arsenic, Fleet enema (and I know some use those routinely at shows, but they *can* be poison), pesticides & fertilizers,

    RECOMMENDED BOOK:  I'm still going to recommend The Pill Book Guide to Medication for Your Dog and Cat -- (1998 Dell reference) -- it doesn't have the newer drugs, true BUT the first 75 pages of it are the BEST first aid book you will find.  It has a whole section on poisons, and first aid in the beginning.  It's an absolutely invaluable book  and it's CHEAP (like $7 on Amazon).  You won't usually find it at a bookstore -- but it can be ordered easily.  I think I've worn out three copies of it over the years.  it is just plain THAT valuable.

    First aid is always a judgment call.  But don't fail to administer first aid because of fear.  You have to JUDGE what is the greater evil -- the bad thing that the dog has ingested or gotten into -- or a potential problem.  In honestly, ANY TIME you have to use first aid, you oughta be ready to head for the vet ***NOW***.  And if you are simply 45 minutes from an emergency vet -- in an abundance of caution I'd be heading FOR the vet and if you decide by the time you get there that the emergency has passed, then turn around.  (i.e., if you had to make Gibby throw up, it would be the act of vomiting that could institute volvulus (bloat) so you could wait UNTIL he throws up and get in the car to go to the vet.  If you drive 1/2 hr and he's showing NO signs of bloat, then turn around and go home.

    Making any sense?  Part of first aid is evaluating the risk. 

    Seriously folks - if you don't HAVE a first aid book that you can instantly lay your hands on?  YOU SHOULD.  There aren't many first aid books that I would just sit and read thru, but the one at the beginning of the Pill Book is one you should do that with.  Because it's general -- it's literally a list of stuff that's a problem and a description of why.

    Things like NSAIDs (ibuprophen, aspirin) - those are things we all have in our medicine cabinet (and often in our purses) -- but the PIll Book will tell you what the dangerous dose is.

    This is the time of the year when dogs tend to get bored and inquisitive -- small animals come in houses seeking shelter from cold and then people lay down poison (and maybe it's not in your house, but it takes a heartbeat for them to "find" something and ingest it from elsewhere).

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs

    In honesty?  I would NOT avoid vomiting just because a dane is prone to bloat.  I would be fully prepared to RACE to the e-vet but if he'd eaten something TRULY toxic (like acetaminaphen) - it would be less risky to induce vomiting and deal with the potential for bloat, than to kill his kidneys by allowing the body to process something truly toxic.

    First aid is always a judgment call.  But don't fail to administer first aid because of fear.  You have to JUDGE what is the greater evil -- the bad thing that the dog has ingested or gotten into -- or a potential problem.  In honestly, ANY TIME you have to use first aid, you oughta be ready to head for the vet ***NOW***.  And if you are simply 45 minutes from an emergency vet -- in an abundance of caution I'd be heading FOR the vet and if you decide by the time you get there that the emergency has passed, then turn around.  (i.e., if you had to make Gibby throw up, it would be the act of vomiting that could institute volvulus (bloat) so you could wait UNTIL he throws up and get in the car to go to the vet.  If you drive 1/2 hr and he's showing NO signs of bloat, then turn around and go home.

    I agree Callie....and I would NOT refrain from making him vomit if I was really concerned about what he ate...had he gotten the regular chocolate side of the dish of fudge rather than the white chocolate side.  I really wasn't horribly concerned about the chocolate part of what he ate...it was the sugar and all the other ingredients also...mainly the amount of it.  When I went to bed I was at first worried he would be getting sick again and I would like to try to get him outside if I could...then started thinking of all the blowing snow that was going on out there....then I started thinking....what if even just all those ingredients mixed together in  his stomach would cause bloat.  Of course he had already thrown up by then.

    Giving him milk thistle is a good idea.....I will get that out now so that I don't forget later today.

    He had his lunch of kibble ( I had given him BilJac frozen this morning because it is a little easier to digest than kibble ) and other than occasional drool that makes me think he might be a little upset to his stomach....he seems to be fine. Plus dr said to watch for lethargy...ha... when I finally got off the computer and started doing things in the house he was right behind me trying to "catch my new slippers" bringing me his toys to throw....and all the normal things.  Took his first dump of the day also...kind of strange looking color of yellow....but not very soft, actually better than I thought.    So far so good.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I would have let them deal with it, if most of it was white chocolate and mint. I have, on occasion, slipped a candy cane Kiss to Bean (they're white with candy cane bits). I know, not the same as a tummy full, but white chocolate isn't real chocolate. It's mostly cream and sugar.

    Poor little Gibby, though, with his touchy tummy! I bet he is sore, after that. I hope he's feeling a little happier, this afternoon.

    • Gold Top Dog

    dyan
    it was the sugar and all the other ingredients also...mainly the amount of it.

    Sugar will make them hyper but it's not the danger that FAT is -- there's usually a lot of fat in fudge-type candy -- butter isn't huge because it's an animal fat, but depending on what was used there can be a lot of veg type oils that are *very* tough for them to digest and could truly be an easy trigger for pancreatitis.

    dyan
    ....what if even just all those ingredients mixed together in  his stomach would cause bloat

    Bloat -- there are two dangers in bloat/torsion/volvulus -- first is that the dog has consumed something that has caused huge amounts of GAS to develop.  That would be more apt to be something like bread dough or something that would cause a yeast type reaction. (think baking -- what causes things to rise -- yeast, or soda+sour milk, or baking powder+salt). 

    But typically in the large-chested dogs the thing that puts the real danger into action is any activity that causes the "roll-over" twisting that further decreases stomach area and causes tissue to die).  So it's like I said -- sometimes with "first aid" you have to treat for something but still go to the vet.  You can always turn around and go home if your worst fears are unfounded.  But knowing the signs of bloat/torsion and keeping an eye on them is the big deal.  

    It may sound bad, but a dog like Gibby that you can't crate you sometimes just plain have to LEASH him to something just to keep track of him.  Humans just aren't careful --- they think it's "cute" to give the dog some, or they just don't think about WHY you have the foot set off in another room.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Like others have said before,  Hydrogen Peroxide is a fail safe for dogs who love to eat. With my Rhodesians I keep several bottles of UNopened HP around. It looses it effectiveness quickly once opened. I rubber band an oral syringe to each bottle, I have them in the cars, the RV, and every bathroom in the house.  You simply fill the syringe with the fresh HP and shoot down the dog's throat.  It may take one or two syringes to insure the dog will vomit. Obviously do this outside as they will bring up things you can't remember feeding them!   It can take a few minutes before the vomiting begins.  And it may well take up wards of 20-30 minutes to stop completely, they go from the bigger discharge to foamey ick.

    I have always played safe than sorry when it comes to the things my dogs have stolen and scarfed down.  You can imagine what kind of week I would have had if I had not done this with our stud Bo when he got into to a 3 qt crock pot of pinto beans and ham hocks.  RR Gas is legendary

    It does have to be done as soon as possible however,  things move quickly through a dog's digestive system.

    • Gold Top Dog

     If it were one of mine I'm not sure what I would have done.  Sally ate the vast majority of a 16 ounce jar of peanut butter once.  I thought about inducing vomiting but I have had the misfortune of vomiting up peanut butter myself once and started choking on it and was afraid that would happen to her.  She ended up fine.  I probably would have let the dog ride it out, and not fed them for the next couple of meals.

     I have to wonder if mine would have touched it--they seem repelled by mint.....