pancreatitis

Dogs can get pancreatitis from eating high-fat foods.  But not all dogs are susceptible to dietary-related pancreatitis.  As we know, some dogs can eat high-fat stuff all their lives w/o a problem.  I believe that Schnauzers are one of the breeds that are considered to be high-risk for dietary-related pancreatitis. 

Dogs can also develop pancreatitis from having some other intestinal upset.  My dog developed it secondary to another issue (the vet suspected giardia, but it was never confirmed).  But regardless of why they get it, recovery depends on allowing the pancreas to rest.  Which is accomplished by feeding a low-fat, bland diet for several weeks.

My dog wasn't at the point of needing an IV when she had pancreatitis, although she was quite sick (vomiting and bloody diarrhea).  She was put on several meds, and what my vet recommended regarding diet was four days of absolutely nothing but chicken or turkey baby food.  Small, frequent meals.  After that he recommended mixing the baby food and canned I/D for four or five days, and then transitioning over to all canned I/D for at least six weeks.  He said I could feed kibble I/D if the cost of the canned was a problem, but in his opinion the canned was the much preferred form, as it's easier to digest than kibble.

I suspect that if the ground beef caused any additional problem for Freeway, it would've been due to the fat content.  IOW, if your friend used the very lean ground beef, then I kind of doubt it made the situation any worse.  If she used the high-fat kind, then maybe.  I've never heard of healthy dogs having any trouble digesting ground beef.  But my gold standard for a dog with an upset tummy is either skinless, boiled chicken breasts and white rice or chicken/turkey baby food.

Thanks Myra......   in your experience...would you think that Freeway could have gotten this because of being so upset at locked in her crate?  Donna always feels so guilty when she has to go away... a lot of times ( probably most ) her and her DH take her with them..consequently Freeway thinks she should go all the time...and when she doesn't, she has started to destroy a door in her house ( Freeway might be about 3 years old or so ) so they have had to crate her lately....and again..when they come home the crate is just covered in slime....everything is soaked from all the slobbering and barking and crying she does.  She had to be in her crate a couple of days in a row and this has happened..so Donna feels guilty.  Not much you can do....got to protect your dog one way or another..but just curious if you think something like that could cause a pancreatic attack.

I don't know.  I've never heard of a dog developing pancreatitis due to stress.  But I think it's definitely worth asking the vet about.  It sounds as if Freeway might be a candidate for Clomicalm or some other med for separation anxiety.

dyan

Freeway was so sick with vomiting and diarrhea all night.... this morning she saw some blood from the vomit. She rushed her to the vet where she had to leave her. SHe just called...after exrays to make sure she wasn't blocked...they came up with pancreatitis and put her on an IV and will be giving her a diet to follow. Dr. said no human food what so ever except boiled chicken with rice.    Then went on to tell me that he told her that she should NOT have given her ground meat, and that ground beef is not digested properly by a dog. I felt really bad on that one because I feel the she thinks she made her worse by giving her ground beef and that was on my suggestion because I had been told chicken is not the best for their stomach.  YIKES!

This is merely medical opinion.  And I'll tell you -- MY vet says **NO chicken!** because it tends to be an inflammatory meat and there's far less food value in it.  But honestly, that bit about ground beef not being digested well?  That is just plain manipulative crap from a vet who thinks commerical food is the whole answer.  Now really fat ground beef or a LOT of fatty ground beef -- that's a "horse of a different color" so to speak.  You do have to be careful to keep the fat content down, but **MOSTLY** it is non-animal fat that is the problem.  Peanut butter is more apt to cause problems than animal fat -- because veg fat is tougher to digest.

Back when my Prissy had pancreatitis (and this was like 35 years ago) the diet the vet gave me when I left with her was ground beef, rice, and a tiny bit of garlic powder and one raw egg stirred in as you take it off the heat (so that cooks).  This wasn't a holistic vet.  And Prissy was 3 then and lived to be 21. 

No joke.  Now I did have to be careful of fat -- ONE pecan half would spin her into pancreatitis again.  (and she loved to steal nutmeats when you were baking).  But I cooked for her for the rest of her long long life.  Over the years she had 3 more attacks -- (all 3 when she was staying with my Mom)

And Prissy's initial attack was horrific.  She had both bloody diarreha and bloody vomit ALL OVER the house.  I came so close to losing her.

Being upset likely upset her digestion a bit .. it didn't "cause" anything but it set it up to be a bit more possible.  She likely should.

You can't just hand a dog "goodies" from human food or scraps.  But giving them good real food prepared as a proper diet  -- there's nothing wrong with that.  Vets simply think they can elminate all owner error by driving people into the ground about ONLY giving dog food.  But when you consider that most veterinary prescription food is preserved with BHA, BHT and ethoxyquin and uses meat sources that are pretty dire ... it's not gonna be my choice.

Billy had pancreatitis just about 18 months ago -- in fact he had pancreatitis and bacterial hepatitis at the same time (it wa at the end of the treatment for IMHA and he was majorly immune-suppressed). 

But at the time her first caution was **NO chicken** because it's a meat that will increase inflammation and I stuck wtih ground beef all the way and he did FINE.

Pancreatitis (and they never explain this) is an INFECTION - that's why they give antibiotics.  It's literally an infected pancreas.  If you explain that to her she may feel better -- because getting upset isn't going to *cause* infection.  It may lower the immune system -- but it's not going to *cause* infection.

But any time you see "titis" at the end of a word it means infection.  Like "bronchitis" or appendicitis or any other "itis". 

Thank you also Callie ( my hero! )

I am sending this whole thread to her so she can see what others are saying also.   I don't know what kind of fat content was in the ground beef that she made Freeway, but I did tell her to boil it and drain it.....isn't that getting rid of a lot of the fat? She was going to go to buy chicken when I told her she could use ground beef also..which she had in the freezer.

I know the food Donna feeds her can't be bad food..Don is kind of a health/vitamin nut...she really doesn't buy much junk unless she is having company. She was always proud that she fed Freeway meats and veggies, and soup and good stuff.

She is supposed to pick Freeway up at 4:30 from the vet ( she had to be sedated also for xrays since it really looked so much like blockage since they know she had chewed up a sheet ) so I guess she will call me after that and tell me what kind of medicine she is on.

This particular doctor is really big on not feeding too much human food to your dog....he got down on me several times for trying to feed Gibby more than one formula of food....I finally started listening about that after the last bout of Gibby issues.  But honestly, Donna could have told me a little different than what he really said ( about why ground beef is not good for dogs )...she was pretty upset herself. She just had a double masectomy...and her husband just found out he had a few medical things wrong just yesterday.... their medical bills are high...and this just didn't have to happen either at this time...for emotional and financial reasons.

calliecritturs

Pancreatitis (and they never explain this) is an INFECTION - that's why they give antibiotics.  It's literally an infected pancreas.  If you explain that to her she may feel better -- because getting upset isn't going to *cause* infection.  It may lower the immune system -- but it's not going to *cause* infection.

But any time you see "titis" at the end of a word it means infection.  Like "bronchitis" or appendicitis or any other "itis". 

"Itis" means inflammation, not infection.  Pancreatitis is inflammation of the pancreas.  It is not an infection in and of itself, although as I stated above, it can occur secondary to another intestinal infection.  Antibiotics are usually prescribed in order to (1) treat any already existing infection that may have triggered the pancreatitis, and (2) to prevent a secondary infection occurring due to the irritated pancreas.

Definition of "itis" from Medicine.net

Information on pancreatitis in dogs from PetEducation

Myra

"Itis" means inflammation, not infection.  Pancreatitis is inflammation of the pancreas.  It is not an infection in and of itself, although as I stated above, it can occur secondary to another intestinal infection.  Antibiotics are usually prescribed in order to (1) treat any already existing infection that may have triggered the pancreatitis, and (2) to prevent a secondary infection occurring due to the irritated pancreas.

Ditto. 

 Our trainer had a dog who got pancreatitis, they think, from being left in a car for an hour on a 60 degree day.  Apparently, although she was super careful, there wasn't good ventilation and her dog was prone to getting rather hot, and they think he overheated, and that was the trigger.  Who will ever know for sure?  But, she's very dog-savvy so I have to give it consideration.

Sammy was diagnosed with pancreatitis a couple months ago.  I cannot think of anything that could have caused it.... he rarely gets scraps, he was on a decent kibble, etc.  We'll probably never know.  His ONLY symptom was vomiting, he didn't even have diarhea.  It may have even been something else, and the high pancreas levels were secondary to something entirely different.  But, a low fat food (we still feed kibble) has been working quite well for him.  There's a thread around here somewhere about what was going on before and after his diagnosis....  Good luck to your friend!

Thanks everyone.   Just talked to her for quite a while....poor Freeway is sure sick.  They brought her home about 5,,,,she is not allowed to eat but doesn't want to anyway.  She is just laying and not even opening her eyes much. When she does seem to move fast...she vomits.  Donna said she is just foaming and foaming..... she tried to give her some medicine and she foamed so much Donna thinks she didn't get it.  She was given Metronidzole, Tramadol, and cerenia for vomiting.  And a prescription diet.   Donna said she was told NEVER any people food except boiled chicken and rice....and not even dog biscuits.  Freeway gets those expensive holistic bisquits. 

They are all whipped in that house...... I pray for a good night sleep for them all...and a better day tomorrow.

dyan

She was given Metronidzole, Tramadol, and cerenia for vomiting.  And a prescription diet. 

Willow's been on all of the above.  She never had pancreas problems, knock on wood. . .

But, she did have some inflammed intestinal loops a few years ago that landed her in the ER for two nights.  And, that is what they gave her too.  That Cerenia works really well, I'll bet Freeway will be up for some babyfood or something tomorrow. 

NicoleS

Myra

"Itis" means inflammation, not infection.  Pancreatitis is inflammation of the pancreas.  It is not an infection in and of itself, although as I stated above, it can occur secondary to another intestinal infection.  Antibiotics are usually prescribed in order to (1) treat any already existing infection that may have triggered the pancreatitis, and (2) to prevent a secondary infection occurring due to the irritated pancreas.

Ditto. 

You guys ARE right ... I was rushing too much.  But the point I was making is that it's not just something that happens because a dog gets stressed. 

And there are all sorts of "levels" (and that's not the right medical word) ... Prissy was literally nearly dead when it all erupted.  And it didn't help that we thot it was an obstruction and the vet told me to give her mineral oil as a first aid measure.  (give something oily to a dog with an already crippled pancreas?? ack)

NicoleS

Sammy was diagnosed with pancreatitis a couple months ago.  I cannot think of anything that could have caused it.... he rarely gets scraps, he was on a decent kibble, etc.  We'll probably never know.  His ONLY symptom was vomiting, he didn't even have diarhea. 

REally often you never know WHAT Caused it.  However -- once they've had it, it tends to be easier for them to get it again.  That's not always the case.  With Prissy it was.  Billy's seemed tied to his low immunity (he'd been on immune suppressors for 18 months for the IMHA). 

typically you don't get both vomiting and diarreha unless they are SUPER sick.  And you don't see blood unless it is really severe.  Heck I never SAW Prissy's until she was that deathly ill (but she'd gotten into a tossed away box of KFC chicken bones on a walk = we were waiting at a light and she and my friend's dog got into these bones in a gutter) =the other dog was fine, and Pris was sick enough to die.

EAch dog seems to react differently.  And even long term -- but she'll find what works.

But it doesn't resolve fast.  Most of the ones who are really sick ARE **very** sick for a while.  It takes a while to get the pancreas back to normal. 

OH ... the other thing.  No diary.  There is something **particularly** about dairy that seems to really torque off the pancreas.  Billy tends to LOVE dairy and that was actually my signal that something was wrong with him -- he refused yogurt (which is something he LOVES beyond belief).  And when he didn't want that I knew something was wrong.  We caught his when it was still pretty asymptomatic -- they caught it because of the amylase and lipase levels in the blood.

Prissy on the other paw -- man, she lived almost 21 years and she first got it when she was THREE.  But I always ALWAYS had to be careful.  She never *ever* did well on any kibble at all. 

Getting them stable is not easy -- so let your friend know this isn't uncommon.

calliecritturs

typically you don't get both vomiting and diarreha unless they are SUPER sick.  And you don't see blood unless it is really severe. 

Yikes....so she has all of the above.

calliecritturs

And it didn't help that we thot it was an obstruction and the vet told me to give her mineral oil as a first aid measure.  (give something oily to a dog with an already crippled pancreas?? ack)

Oh gosh............I don't think she did this...but because Freeway got a hold of a sheet that she chewed up that was too close to her crate...I was ( in my head ) sure there was blockage....I'm still worried about it because often material does'nt show up in xrays......but I told her to do what my vet had me do several years ago which was to give her vasoline.......and then feed her small meals of bland food.   I know she cooked the meat then...but never said she did any thing else...gosh I hope not that would make matters worse for sure.

Lori... Bubby was on Cerenia also...although it didnt help her because of her illness and she was not really vomitting...  but hopefully your right and hopefully she can get it down her. Last night Donna had to give her a tremadol and Cerenia......she got the Cerenia down..but she was foaming so much that she immediately foamed up and Donna thinks some of it came back out...she never did get the tremado down...she figured if she is uncomfortable during the night and is awake she will try it then.  She is so worried and concerned...I hope they had a good night.  Donna is completely stressed out with her own health problems, she is easy to fall apart with this. 

Living with lots and lots of Schnauzers, it's true that pancreatitis is a problem within the breed as a whole, because the overall breed has high blood levels of lipoproteins and too much cooked fats can cause it.

Cooked is important....cooking fats, whether they are animal-based or plant-based, changes the properties and it is generally cooked fats that are the largest culprit. My three all eat raw diets, and the fat level would be considered quite high compared to kibble, but the difference is that it's easily digestible and goes right through the dog's digestive system, and I've never had a problem with it in my guys. They eat raw chicken fat, ground beef, pork ribs, all of the food they eat has fat in it and it works out well for them.

Callie is right too, that plant fats are harder to process than animal fats, and that could be part of the problem. Another problem can be with kibbled foods in general, in that kibbles are a lot harder to digest than natural foods, and the pancreas can be taxed in the process of living with a kibbled diet forever....especially with lower-quality kibbled diets.

I have never heard of stress causing pancreatitis, there generally has to be something that physically irritates and affects the pancreas that causes it to become inflamed. Medications can play a part in it as well, although I don't know much about what medications may be involved. I know more about it from a dietary standpoint.

Thanks for your input Kim....interesting about the cooked fats.

 Talked to Donna this morning...she sounded pretty crummy.....her voice is all nervous and crackly.... she doesn't think Freeway is one bit better....however after asking her a few questions...its still good signs.   She is still vomiting..but no blood. She doesn't want to touch any food or water, Dr. said just tiny bits at a time..but she doesn't want any.   She slept the night..did get sick twice during the night but went back to sleep....so she seems to be fairly comfortable.  And Donna said right before hanging up that she is holding her ears up a little again.......so I told her to please try to fogus on those good things and try not to be so upset because no doubt Freeway is picking up on that.   Sure...easy said.  Donna was there with me during my Bubbblegums last days...crying along side of me.

Problem is she can't get the pills down her well...especially the Cerinia and Tremadol.  She gives them and then Freeways vomits...or foams so bad that she can't tell if she got any of them or if they all came back out.  

You might ask her if the vet administered an injectable anti-nausea drug.  Centrine is used pretty commonly for stuff like this, I think, but I'm sure there are others.  My vet likes to give an injectable to initially help settle things, and then continue with oral meds.