nfowler
I could use some decent glucosamine for my knees (winter is killing them--wah) and I want your advice as to what I can try. They are all quite pricey and I want to make sure that I spend my money on something that will be effective.
This will contribute not only to you but also to real pain management.
The easy answer is Knox NutraJoint -- NOT glucosamine. Nancy, with all the arthritis that *I* have (rheumatoid) I don't take glucosamine or chondroitin. I honestly don't find them very helpful -- mostly because they are "hydrators" -- meaning they simply "plump up" connective tissue so it cushions better. Stop taking it and it stops helping.
But you have to HAVE connective tissue that's in good shape for g/c to work. That's the catch.
NutraJoint is ground bovine cartilage, calcium and some minerals. It literally helps the body **rebuild** cartilage -- as in a more permanent fix, rather than JUST hydrating what little cartilage may be left there.
The drawback is that it may take months to work -- usually about 8 - 12 weeks. BUT when it does it is permanent. Now I generally use a teaspoon for a 30 pound dog (Billy takes it and so do I).
ALSO -- at this point Osteo Biflex has bought this part of the Knox family. So it's now called "Osteo Biflex Knox NutraJoint -- I got this from the Knox Company this week:
"
Thank you for contacting Knox. Knox has merged with Osteo Biflex and Knox NutraJoint powders are now known as Osteo BiFlex NutraJoint powder. NutraJoint powders are available at the following fine retailers: Wal-Mart, Kroger, Target, Eckerd, BJ’s, Sam’s Club, Publix, CVS/pharmacy, Walgreens, RITE-AID, Kmart, Albertson's, Discount Drug Mart, Duane Reade, Giant Eagle, Marc's / Expect Discounts, Meijer, Snyders Drug, A & P Supermarkets, Shoprite Supermarkets, Path-Mark, Price Chopper, Stop & Shop, Wegmans Food Markets, Kinney Drug, Penn Traffic, Brooks Drug, May’s Drug Stores, Ingles, MED-X, Winn-Dixie, H.E. Butt, Food Lion, Shopko, Pamida, Safeway, Raley’s. NutraJoint powders are also available online at www.drugstore.com.
If you have any further questions, our Consumer Affairs Representatives can be reached toll-free at 1-888-893-5669, Monday through Friday, 9am-7pm EST. We look forward to serving you in the future. "
Now -- (sorry that copied so huge)
I also got an email from them the next day responding to my query about whether or not the formulas have changed - they have not. NutraJoint HAS a formula with g/c in it but I don't use it -- it's really not necessary and it's VERY pricey.
GBKakis
I don't want to copy 'n paste without permission from Merck, but there are clinical explanations as to why etodolac and aspirin are reasonable choices for dogs, while ibuprofen and naproxen are not good choices. I know there will be people out there that will say, "I told you so." That's fine. I needed to hear more about the mechanism before I accepted conventional wisdom. What the Merck manual indicated is that part of the reason for the GI toxicity in dogs is due to extensive gastrointestinal-hepatic recirculation, with prolonged elimination half-lives. By example, the half-life of naproxen in people is 12-17 hours, while it's 35-74 hours in dogs. So, while it is dosed once or twice daily in people, perhaps it would need to be dosed around once every other day in dogs. So, dosing naproxen once or twice daily in dogs, which is what some well-intentioned people might do, but in doing so would potentially harm their pets. I know aspirin and etodolac are available quite cheaply online, such as Drs Foster & Smith, so perhaps those will be long-term options.
You can copy and paste from Merck just give them 'credit' (reference them with a footnote like you would in a paper or article)
But again, I'm going to interject -- you may be able to dose every other day on something EXCEPT -- the rate that it gets thru the body may not coincide with how well it works on the inflammation. You're assuming that a reduced dose of whatever is going to work as well in a dog simply by using a lesser amount.
Dogs have faster metabolisms in many ways than humans do -- but how they digest, how they process chemicals -- sometimes they need lesser amounts ... sometimes they need BIGGER amounts. The amount of diphenhydramine (Benedryl) that a dog needs a GIGANTIC compared to how a human takes it. Because of how they metabolize it. But even jumping from one antihistamine to another, you can't assume the same ratio of amount used/how well it works because the different drugs are absorbed totally differently.
Part of the basic way an NSAID works is "cumulative". Meaning what it does *today* actually builds on what was done **yesterday**. Every day some inflammation is reduced ... but then more inflammation IS ADDED (because of the disease process). So in order to make headway and steadily reduce the pain you have to have more inflammation reduced than is being added by the disease process. A bit further down I will suggest that my own experience has taught me to use a relaxant to tip the scaled so more inflammation is reduced than is 'added' by the disease process.
Simply shopping between Rimadyl/Previcox, etc is honestly not going to work as well as you wish. Because each of those will affect different dogs different ways. You may or may not know that one of two dogs in a household may have a touchier liver than the other. Or maybe both of them -- because of exposure to toxins or unique genetic disposition -- may have liver or kidneys that are less able to cope than others.
But you may want to consider that there ARE things you can to to mitigate that damage. And some of those things are pretty darned cheap to do.
TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER:
I want to say this so you understand I'm not being snarky. I'm going to make a wild guess that you have never experienced the same sort of pain your dogs may be experiencing -- hence your super clinical approach to this.
I can't do that. I have some extensive medical/veterinary knowleldge but I'm not a vet. But to explain as seriously as I can, truly trying not to be snarky -- even most vets are coming to the realization that prolonged use of NSAIDs and pain killers have severe side effects. They don't like to admit that to clients simply because it can make them look bad.
You asked why I thot you were trying to label acetaminaphen as an nsaid?? You, in the original post, were flatly speaking of "pain killers" and I honestly don't think of nsaids as a pain killer. An nsaid releives pain in a roundabout way -- because it reduces the inflammation which is likely causing part or all of the pain -- but it's purpose is to relieve the inflammation ... THEN the pain as a result. Pain killers like tramadol or even the dogs-can't-take-acetaminaphen work on the brain.
It's obvious YOU know that, but it's important that ANYONE reading this thread not walk away from it with dangerous information.
But to finish explaining -- I have rheumatoid arthritis myself. Have had for about 45 years now. But I can't take the big guns nsaids -- I can't even take aleve (naproxyn sodium). They make me violently ill -- this isn't a number, this s just plain my reality.
So I figured out years ago that I had to approach pain management from a "what works" standoint. I also figured out years ago that I'd like to be around for a long time, and having a liver and kidneys that "work" is definitely a plus in lovegvity since we kind of need them.
I can't discuss Cox inhibitors with you. But I can discuss what WORKS. I can tell you how to approach pain management in a way that is kind to the body AND cost-effective. I can also tell you that there's a serious hole in your theaory about simply doing twice annual bloodwork to check that all is ok.
That's the real problem with approaching this the way you are -- because the body won't SHOW renal damage until it's VERY high. And once you've reached like 75% renal failure -- which is where you begin to see nausea and compromised bloodwork values -- the dog only has about a month to live.
So the caution has to come into play LONG LONG LONG before that. That is if you want ANY longevity.
So -- you use stuff like Knox NutraJoint as described above. Can I give you studies?? No -- they don't market to dogs. But it works. The fact that *I* am still on my feet is directly attributable to that.
I can also tell you that ANY TIME you get great pain in joints, you can get better use out of whatever nsaid you DO use by the use of a relaxant at the same time.
Why? Because when you hurt your muscles tighten and tense up. THAT causes that joint to rub on itself even *harder*. The more you tense, the more it hurts, the more it rubs, the worst the inflammation gets. Vicous cycle.
But if you take some sort of a gentle relaxant so the joint DOES relax, then the nsaid doesn't spend itself pointlessly trying to releive inflammation that is only going to worsen at the same instant you're trying to relieve it.
ok - what's a 'gentle' relaxant? ANY pharmaceutical relaxant tends to be habit-forming. Valium is a prime example. They will give it to dogs but only under certain circumstances -- it's a narcotic so it's not easy to get for a dog.
HOWEVER -- you can use an herb like valerian, passion flower or skullcap or St. John's Wort. They are *not* habit-forming.
You do have to delve into herbology tho -- because altho valerian is probably the most widely available of those nervine herbs I just mentioned, it's also secondarily digested in the liver so it's "harder" on the liver than the others.
Herbs ARE medicine -- and they must be respected as such. But they aren't studied ... there are no "numbers" if that's what you demand.
The other suggestion I'd have is the addition of milk thistle to whatever drug regimen you are going to impose. Milk thistle (silymarin is the latin) is a protectant for the liver. But it also helps liver function -- so much so that it can actually improve the performance of many drugs because the milk thistle helps the drug to metabolize better.
Now if you want to look at the price of milk thistle capsules online or at your local health store it's pricey. AND herbs are very like buying tomatoes at your grocery store. They are plant matter -- you can get good quality -- or you can get sucky quality.
However, the thing you won't immediatley know, unless you know someone pretty well versed in herbology -- is that milk thistle doesn't taste bad at all. So you can actually just put the milk thistle powder in their food, rather than using the capsules. who cares?? Well, you can buy a pound of milk thistle bulk (just the ground powder) for about $12.70. (http://www.leavesandroots.com ) -- and that's equal to about $180 - $200 worth of "capsules" purchased either online or in a store. And the dog will digest the plain herb better without the cellulose capsule. But that $12.70 can go a LONG way to ensuring that the NSAID won't trash the liver.
You can buy Marin (put out by the same company that sells Adequan) but it is EXTREMELY pricey and if you're looking for something cheaper the herb is far better cost-wise, and actually has less side effects than the pharmacutical.
Sorry -- I don't discuss statistics well -- I don't have much use for them because they often don't translate to reality.
I have a real problem with "medicine by the number" -- just because 75% of those studied showed improvement on X mg. of ABC drug doesn't mean it's right for ME or mine. (and I have had enough drug reactions to be exactly THAT distrustful of any and all pharmaceuticals).
But you need a GOOD holistic vet to help work out a program that will help your dogs.
The other thing I will suggest because it is an AWESOME tool to reduce inflammation and pain is acupuncture. It works ... boy does it ever. And it's not just my dogs who get it. It was a VET (the head neurosurgeon up at the U of FL at Gainesville, in fact) who got ME to try acupuncture for my own arthritis (because it's how he controls HIS -- and we're talking about Dr. Roger Clemmons)
If you're interested, in the video section of this forum there is a video of Billy getting acupuncture from Dr. Connie DiNatale.
I'm sure any thot of alternative medicine may be something you're less than comfortable with -- but it's valuable.
But honeslty? Please don't try to have a purely clinical or "numbers" attitude about pain management. Because it just plain doesn't WORK that way. Pain is very personal -- and dogs are extremely stoic. and if you assume you can just do aspirin because it's cheaper? You honestly don't understand how pain works, nor do you fully understand all the things that go into long-term pain management but at the same time mitigating the damage being done to the body by the nsaids.
If you are ONLY looking at reducing pain - but you don't try to protect the body, and minimize the other side effects that may occur it is all likely to fall apart. Things like Zantac, Tagamet, etc. to "protect" the stomach are fine -- there are herbs that are cheaper and more effects tho, that have less side effects.
If you want to discuss any of this further feel free to email me. I have a whole article on pain management I'm happy to send you that discusses both human and dog arthritis management and pain management. But it's practical -- not number based.