My Musings on Arthritis Pain Management Pharmacology in Dogs

    • Bronze

    My Musings on Arthritis Pain Management Pharmacology in Dogs

    In looking around at the pain management options out there, it seems as though there is a fair amount of misinformation. Are there any pharmacologists in the Golden Retriever Forum? I'm familiar with human pharmacology, but appreciate there are some differences.

    Arthritis pain management options for dogs include: aspirin, etodalac, ibuprofen, naprosyn, rimadyl (carprofen), deramaxx (deracoxib), tramadol (ultram), and acetaminophen.

    When I read the posts on this forum, there seem to be some odd conclusions being stated that suggest dog pharmacology is wildly different than humans, which I find hard to believe. I appreciate, for instance, that cat metabolism of acetaminophen is truly different than human, but not dogs. The issues with these drugs seems to arise from safe dosing of the medicines and not specifically the safety of the medicines themselves.

    Dogs have both cox-1 and cox-2 enzymes, so it would seem they are able to utilize many of the same NSAIDs humans can take. As with human pharmaceuticals, drug companies push hard on using the selective cox-2 meds (rimadyl and deramaxx for pets), because they are more expensive. Do humans have gastrointestinal bleeds less frequently on selective cox-2 antagonists than on the nonselective agents (aspirin, ibuprofen, naprosyn)? Yes. Can humans take the nonselective agents without getting gastrointestinal bleeds and/or ulcers? Yes. Where do we see the bleeds? When people take too much and/or have an underlying condition which is exacerbated by the nonselective cox antagonists. Are there allergies to nonselective agents (e.g. aspirin)? Certainly. So, care is always warranted when starting a new medicine, in people as in pets. Importantly, NSAIDs aren't used in kids under six months due to the imature kidney, so presumably something similar would be true in dogs (e.g. not starting until 3 or 4 months; purely a guess on my part).

    So, if it's a safety in dosing issue, why don't people follow the pediatric methodology of medicine dosing, which is to do weight-based dosing. Pediatricians classically deliver medicines using the weight-based method, while internists and other adult physicians typically use a one-size-fits-all approach (with some exceptions, of course). I'm guessing people see so many gastrointestinal bleeds in their dogs because they're using adult human pills and not paying attention to their pet's weight. Thankfully goldens are the size of very small adults, so many adult pills can be considered.

    When people talk about chronic lab testing while on pain medicines, I keep reading about checking liver function while taking the various NSAIDs, but I don't see people also mentioning kidney function. I appreciate that the site of NSAID metabolism is typically the liver, but that's not the typical site of toxicity. NSAIDs classically target the kidneys by constricting afferent arterioles, thereby limiting blood flow to the kidneys and potentially damaging them by depriving them of oxygen. So, please be sure you are also aware of your dog's kidney function while chronically taking NSAIDs. I would imagine this is probably more of a pet owner misunderstanding than a vet's lack of knowledge, but I am curious if there are known liver toxicity issues that I'm unfamiliar with.

    Tramadol (ultram) is a synthetic drug that binds the opioid receptors in a similar fashion as narcotics. It has no antiinflammatory effects, but can be used in humans with kidney and/or liver disease, albeit at lower doses.

    Lodine (etodolac) is an NSAID with murky pharmacology. It's metabolized in the liver, so liver function should be monitored. It's heavily excreted in the urine, so kidney function should be monitored, too.

    I'm curious why acetaminophen isn't used more in dogs, as long as it's done in a weight-based methodology. Yes, acetaminophen can cause liver toxicity, but I would expect it's unlikely if you follow appropriate dosing. Yes, I would still do once or twice-yearly bloodwork to monitor liver function if the dog takes the medicine most days of the week.

    Finally, if a person is on high doses of NSAIDs for a long time, they'll also typically be on a drug like famotidine (Pepcid) or omeprazole (Prilosec). This has been shown to limit gastrointestinal bleeds. Why don't I see more people talking about putting their dogs on intermittent dosing of famotidine (cheaper, but less potent than omeprazole) when they're treating the dogs for arthritis?

    Another tip is that folks need to be very careful buying into the buffered and/or coated witchcraft about aspirin. The gastrointestinal bleeds that come from aspirin are due to systemic effects and not contact. There are very rare contact-based problems with aspirin, but bleeds are almost always due to the systemic effect of the drug (same in people, too). So, don't waste money on coated/buffered aspirin unless there is a very clear indication.

    Bottom line: Can someone please tell me why a chronic cocktail of naprosyn or ibuprofen can't be used, as long as it's weight-based, there's intermittent use of famotidine, and there's periodic monitoring of kidney function? This is far cheaper than using rimadyl and deramaxx and should be just as effective at limiting Fido's pain/inflammation. The periodic use of famotidine would allow time for healing of minor gastrointestinal irritations. Drug companies make tons of money off of people being uninformed or underinformed, so let's improve the community knowledge.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Simple answer?

    Acetaminophen will kill your dog/cat. It is highly, highly toxic. One small tylenol pill, or ibuprofin, advil, etc. will, if not kill, make your pet extremely ill.

    Asprin has been known to give dogs gastric ulcers, and should only be given under direct order of your vet
    • Gold Top Dog

    It's late but you have some massive mis-information here.

     I"m going to say ONLY this right now.

    Acetaminophen IS *****DEADLY***** TO DOGS

     It's not a liver thing.  It kills their kidneys almost immediately.  Even one 225 mg. pill of "regular" Tylenol will cause immediate renal failure in even a small to medium dog.  DEATH.  It completely shuts down their KIDNEYS almost immediately.

    GBKakis
    Can someone please tell me why a chronic cocktail of naprosyn or ibuprofen can't be used, as long as it's weight-based,

    Because the dosing is nearly impossible to accomplish -- I'm not well versed in naproxyn sodium for dogs, but ibuprophen is pretty well considered poison to dogs merely because the dosing is incredibly difficult and the potential of damage usually isn't worth it.

    GBKakis
    So, don't waste money on coated/buffered aspirin unless there is a very clear indication.

    enteric stuff isn't well absorbed by dogs -- it's designed to be absorbed in the small intestine, not the stomach, but with dogs that digestion is different and usually it's just not going to be well absorbed at all there.

    Vets use Pepcid, Tagament and Zantac (and Prilo-sec) on dogs -- but typically only in cases where the dog is on huge steroids or steroid-like drugs like for IMHA.  Sucrylfate (carafate) is typically the veterinary drug of choice  to help protect the stomach, but you can't use it in diseases like IMHA because it can also cause the other drugs (steroids/steroid-like drugs) not to be absorbed well enough to  combat the disease.

     I don't have the time to respond to this more now.  But your medical knowledge of dogs is honestly sorely lacking.  There ARE answers to your questions -- because not all vets are out to make a buck. 

     My first recommendation for you would be to purchase of copy of "The PIll Book Guide to Medications for Your Dog and Cat" -- Dell reference -- 1998 pub.

     You can get it on Amazon -- good reference book for most of your common drugs like the onesyou mention.  But it will also explain to you the acetaminaphen toxic reaction as well as the difficulty with dosing other NSAIDs. 

    Part of the other thing you aren't thinking about -- a human can FEEL when the stomach burns  and take steps to stop a med or inform a doctor of a reaction.  A DOG CAN NOT.  So it makes dosing everything more difficult -- since all NSAIDss can cause stomach bleeding -- you always have to be careful -- but even more so in a situation where they have NO voice.  They simply can't say "Oops doc -- man, that's really killing my stomach"

     

     

    • Bronze
    erica1989
    Acetaminophen will kill your dog/cat. It is highly, highly toxic. One small tylenol pill, or ibuprofin, advil, etc. will, if not kill, make your pet extremely ill.
    Unless I'm mistaken, the reading I did about acetaminophen said the severe toxicity was primarily in cats. Dogs, like humans, seem to be able to take low doses without problems. In humans, there can be real cases of toxicity with overdose and I suspect the same is true in dogs. I know there is lore out there about these medicines and that's why I'm posting looking for more informed insight, hopefully from someone with a veterinary PharmD or a vet. Ten plus years ago, before we had the cox-2 inhibitors, our vets were telling us to use ibuprofen/advil/motrin for our dogs with arthritis. There wasn't a point at which the medicines suddenly turned toxic when they were fine before. The dogs got periodic doses and they did fine. They didn't die of terrible bleeds and they actually walked around better and were able to get around better with their limps under control. So, I know there will be variability in animal responses and that's what I was hoping to get more information about.
    • Bronze
    calliecritturs

    It's late but you have some massive mis-information here.

    My goal isn't to try and spread misinformation about pets. My goal is to try and learn more. I know my knowledge is lacking and that's why I'm asking for help.
    calliecritturs

    My first recommendation for you would be to purchase of copy of "The PIll Book Guide to Medications for Your Dog and Cat" -- Dell reference -- 1998 pub.

     You can get it on Amazon -- good reference book for most of your common drugs like the onesyou mention.  But it will also explain to you the acetaminaphen toxic reaction as well as the difficulty with dosing other NSAIDs.

    Thank you. This is the kind of information I'm looking for. I am an academic-oriented person, but am not familiar with validated references in veterinary medicine.
    calliecritturs
    Part of the other thing you aren't thinking about -- a human can FEEL when the stomach burns  and take steps to stop a med or inform a doctor of a reaction.  A DOG CAN NOT.  So it makes dosing everything more difficult -- since all NSAIDss can cause stomach bleeding -- you always have to be careful -- but even more so in a situation where they have NO voice.
    I agree about the distinction between dogs and you, but don't forget we take care of a lot of people that cannot tell us how they feel -- infants, elderly, and cognitively impaired. So, a real part of our caring for people also involves taking care of those who cannot tell us how they're doing. Yes, we do work hard to be careful not to cause harm with our medicines; even harder in those who cannot tell us how we're doing in caring for them. Completely agree.
    • Gold Top Dog

    erica1989
    Simple answer?

    Acetaminophen will kill your dog/cat. It is highly, highly toxic. One small tylenol pill, or ibuprofin, advil, etc. will, if not kill, make your pet extremely ill.

    Asprin has been known to give dogs gastric ulcers, and should only be given under direct order of your vet

     

     

    Naproxen is often deadly to dogs because it's so easy to reach and exceed the toxic dose.  Medications are not benign and should be given under the direction of a vet or holistic vet, in the case of herbs, etc.  JMHO, because I see a lot of people trying to save money by doctoring at home and ending up doing more damage than they ever imagined they could.  Lots of practicing without a veterinary license on the Internet;-)

    • Gold Top Dog

    GBKakis
    erica1989
    Acetaminophen will kill your dog/cat. It is highly, highly toxic. One small tylenol pill, or ibuprofin, advil, etc. will, if not kill, make your pet extremely ill.
    Unless I'm mistaken, the reading I did about acetaminophen said the severe toxicity was primarily in cats. Dogs, like humans, seem to be able to take low doses without problems

    Thinking that acetaminaphen is only a problem in cats is absolutely FALSE.

    I'll be honest, even having you put this in text in a post on here makes me want to weep.  Even accidental ingestion -- like ONE regular strength Tylenol that falls out of a woman's purse can and *will* kill a small dog and it will **damage** the kidneys of any dog -- maybe not enough to kill immediately but without some sort of chelating agent to help bind with those damaging molecules it will continue to do damage after it was ingested.  It takes a very few days to see them die the most horrible death imaginable from renal failure.  It literallyl almost instantly destroys the kidneys.  You can't possibly dose it small enough to be of ANY earthly good.

    Even a dose not large enough to "kill" will still damage renal tissue beyond repair -- once kidney tissue is "damaged" it is GONE.  So even if a dog were to 'survive' accidental ingestion of acetaminaphen, there would be renal tissue that would be absolutely irretrievably gone.  Forever. 

     I quote the Pill Book Guide to Medications for Your Dog and Cat

    " Page xxxix "Common Household Poisons"

    Acetaminaphen (Tylenol)AQcetaminaphen is a safe and effective pain reliever and fever reducer for people, but it causes serious toxic reactions in dogs and especially in cats (see Acetylsysteine)."

     It is the FIRST entry under poisons (because it starts with "A".

    It does NOT even list it as a drug you can give to cats or dogs in the rest of the book -- but it ODES list it under comon household poisons.

    It absolutely does not matter if you can give something to a dog or cat at some infinitesimal dose -- because in order to be useful it has to be at a dose that works with that animal's metabolism to accomplish whatever it's meant to do.

    The other place where you have basic mis-information is that you seem to believe that acetaminaphen is somehow classed as an NSAID.  **it is not**  It is an antipyretic and an analgesic.  NOT a "Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug" or NSAID.

    In short, acetaminaphen convinces the brain that there is no pain.  It doesn't reduce actual "inflammation" the way an nsaid does.  Those two things are completely different.  Tylenol masks pain -- it doesn't make the source of the inflammation have less inflammation.  In other words don't confuse "painkiller" with something that treats the *cause* of the pain by making the inflammation less so it, in turn, hurts less. 

    Does that make sense?

    ALL nsaids are risky -- every single, solitary one of them.  They ALL cause stomach bleeding in some degree.  Even herbal nsaids like white willow bark.  You just plain ALWAYS have to be careful.

    Rimadyl, or carprophen was originally developed for humans -- but it had such a huge incidence in causing renal and liver problems that the FDA wouldn't approve it for human use -- so rather than "waste" the money spent on development, they merely repackaged it for animals.  Does it cause problems in animals?  Oh yes it does. 

    Rimadyl, Deramaxx, Metacam, and others?  They ALL cause problems -- the liver takes a huge beating with all of them.

    But there's a difference in something that causes long-term problems (and in most cases, you can mitigate the damage by using something like pretty high doses of milk thistle to protect the liver, and to a lesser degree, the kidneys.)

    But please don't think that something that *might* ultimately be "safe" at an ultra low dose is ok to use.  Because the likelihood of that thing being any sort of satisfactory answer is remote and the damage to the kidneys from something like acetaminaphen/Tylenol WOULD BE CUMULATIVE -- so if you give this "low dose" you would, VERY SOON damage a sufficient amount of the kidneys to kill.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I don't understand why we're even discussing this and no, I'm not being rude. Giving dogs drugs--be they drugs for humans or dogs--deserves not only a lot of thought and research (which is what the OP stated, that s/he is trying to learn) but also a tight relationship with a vet, either a holistic one or a conventional one. I'm finally bridging the gap between the two for my dog and it's a good thing.

    I'm very methodical and careful about what I give him to manage his pain. Just like I know what's effective for me, it's been a LONG journey to figuring out my dog's sweet spot when it comes to pain management and drugs and supplements and pactices. And the thing is, I know what we're doing today won't be what we're doing tomorrow so my research and discussions are ongoing.

    Nicely done, Callie. And while I'm here (and haven't talked to you in awhile) I could use some decent glucosamine for my knees (winter is killing them--wah) and I want your advice as to what I can try. They are all quite pricey and I want to make sure that I spend my money on something that will be effective. (Murphy gets his through Nupro and Myristin, and I don't see myself taking that for me--ha.) I am taking omega 3s (finally I made that a goal and I've stuck with it) and I'm taking some GLAs too, but I think I need the gluco.

    • Bronze
    calliecritturs

    The other place where you have basic mis-information is that you seem to believe that acetaminaphen is somehow classed as an NSAID.  **it is not**  It is an antipyretic and an analgesic.  NOT a "Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug" or NSAID.

    I completely agree that acetaminophen is *not* an NSAID. I am very familiar with the pharmacology of both nonselective and selective COX inhibitors and know that acetaminophen is not in that group. I re-read my posts and I don't see where I said anything that would suggest I think they're related. I also know I'm having a hard time finding real information about *why* acetaminophen is toxic instead of just anecdotal evidence that is passed on as lore. Nonetheless, I'm not defending it's use in dogs, but am just looking at information. The mainstay of treatment of arthritis in mammals is NSAIDs and that's my focus. As acetaminophen is not an NSAID, it's not my focus of interest.
    calliecritturs

    ALL nsaids are risky -- every single, solitary one of them.  They ALL cause stomach bleeding in some degree.  Even herbal nsaids like white willow bark.  You just plain ALWAYS have to be careful.

    Again, I agree completely. We see some people with bleeds on very low doses of aspirin, while others get bleeds only if they go off label and hit superhuman levels.

    My whole point in writing this thread was to get more information about the true pharmacology of the nonselective COX inhibitors in dogs. Before the selective COX-2 inhibitors were on the market, my vets were indicating that things like ibuprofen were reasonable to give to dogs with arthritis. These vets weren't hacks or idiots. They used the best tools they had at the time. Importantly, however, they wouldn't have been making that recommendation if the pets were dropping like flies just to treat arthritis. Now that the COX-2 inhibitors are here, they're being recommended as the only choice. I'm just trying to figure out what is really different in dogs that has lead to so many people saying the nonselective COX inhibitors are now contraindicated. Something similar happened in human medicine, as companies were pushing hard to transition to the selective COX-2 agents. However, this sputtered out as we learned the selective COX-2 agents increase the risk of coronary artery disease and heart attacks in people. Now we'll only rarely see people being directed towards the selective COX-2 agents, primarily because of the risk of heart disease.

    Why is it possibly bad to blindly agree with what the vet says? Sometimes the source of information we trust in clinical practice isn't as good as we think. So, it's possible to make suboptimal choices in the medicines we use. It happens in human medicine and *has* to happen in veterinary medicine.

    I want to bring this back to my point about specifics in why nonselective NSAIDs can't be used in dogs. I'm not looking for anecdotes, but real data. If someone can tell me why nonselective NSAIDs cannot be used, that's fine. I just cannot find any real data. Do NSAIDS cause bleeding? Absolutely. Without a doubt. This is a known risk of the NSAID class. There are absolute contraindications, relative contraindications, and risks of medicines. There are many real risks about using any NSAID (e.g. bleeding, kidney toxicity, gastritis, etc.). Nonetheless, they have many real benefits that are both life-saving and life-improving. Some relative contraindications would be coexisting kidney disease and renal artery stenosis. I'm just trying to figure out what the absolute and relative contraindications are in dogs.

    • Bronze
    nfowler
    I don't understand why we're even discussing this and no, I'm not being rude.
    I think there is a lot of misinformation out there about why we use the drugs we use, both in human and veterinary medicine. In looking around at the post in various dog forums, there seem to be many decisions based on anecdotes and not real data. I started this post to attempt to address the myths of vet medicine and to learn about real data. I know public forums may not be the best place to get real pharmacology, but I was hoping that there may be pharmacologists or vets out there that could help me. I've got an ailing pup and I am trying to do what's best for him. Informed choices can only be made when we have all the information and I want more information.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Well, I doubt very much that too many vets write on these forums. You can try and see if they'd let you into their VIN or VIP sites--those are the "forums" they use.

    We have quite a few knowledgeable people on this forum who are struggling and journeying with their dogs and pain management. Maybe you should just tell us your story.

    • Gold Top Dog

    nfowler
    You can try and see if they'd let you into their VIN or VIP sites--those are the "forums" they use

    I was going to recommend the same!  You're searching for answers in the wrong place!  You should be searching through and reading technical papers.  It'll be tough to find evidence/scientific data for what you're searching for though!
    • Gold Top Dog
    GBKakis
    Unless I'm mistaken, the reading I did about acetaminophen said the severe toxicity was primarily in cats. Dogs, like humans, seem to be able to take low doses without problems. In humans, there can be real cases of toxicity with overdose and I suspect the same is true in dogs. I know there is lore out there about these medicines and that's why I'm posting looking for more informed insight, hopefully from someone with a veterinary PharmD or a vet. Ten plus years ago, before we had the cox-2 inhibitors, our vets were telling us to use ibuprofen/advil/motrin for our dogs with arthritis. There wasn't a point at which the medicines suddenly turned toxic when they were fine before. The dogs got periodic doses and they did fine. They didn't die of terrible bleeds and they actually walked around better and were able to get around better with their limps under control. So, I know there will be variability in animal responses and that's what I was hoping to get more information about.


    I may not be a vet, but I've spent the past 6 years working in veterinary medicine. I've worked hand in hand with many emergency vets, flushing dogs systems after they've ingested tylenol and such. They do not tell you to NOT give your dogs human medications for no reason. They are NOT safe. I've had this talk with many of my clients, and my veterinarian has back me up 100%. There has never been a single instance where my doctor has said that it was ok for one of his clients to give their dog otc human pain medication.

    Not all vets are in the business of making money. My dr. is one that is there for the best interest of the animals, and I am going to trust his judgement when he says to NOT do it.

    Medicine is far more advanced today than it was years ago, we know MORE about how things affect us and our pets that we used to. Research has been done, and I've seen first hand what these kinds of medications can do to dogs and cats.
    • Bronze
    nfowler

    Well, I doubt very much that too many vets write on these forums. You can try and see if they'd let you into their VIN or VIP sites--those are the "forums" they use.

    Sorry. I don't know what your acronyms 'VIN' and 'VIP' are. I'm guessing you're not saying Very Important Person.
    nfowler

    We have quite a few knowledgeable people on this forum who are struggling and journeying with their dogs and pain management. Maybe you should just tell us your story.

    Tapping into the knowledge of informed pet owners is my goal. One person on another forum pointed me to a Veterinary Anesthesia site, where the vet recommends proper dosing of NSAIDs. It is here: http://www.vasg.org/chronic_pain_management.htm. It's interesting to see in that reference how NSAIDs can be used in cats, but they need to be dosed lower than in dogs. Perhaps that group will be able to help steer me towards the more technical information I'm looking for. I am also thinking about writing a vet school to see if I can find more information there. As for my 'story', I posted it, but the moderators took it down because it mentioned the breeder's name. I don't want to post it again with the name gone, because then I might get 'in trouble' for over-posting my topic. I have posted it on other pet forums and in my blog, but I think it's against forum rules for me to link to my own stuff off-site.
    • Bronze
    erica1989
    They do not tell you to NOT give your dogs human medications for no reason. They are NOT safe. I've had this talk with many of my clients, and my veterinarian has back me up 100%. There has never been a single instance where my doctor has said that it was ok for one of his clients to give their dog otc human pain medication. My dr. is one that is there for the best interest of the animals, and I am going to trust his judgement when he says to NOT do it.
    The absolute safest answer is to have patients defer to the vet. No questions asked there. I completely agree. However, no medicine is truly safe, even if you can get it at your local drug store. We see plenty of over-doses on OTC medicines in people, even if they may follow the instructions. The instructions can never truly account for all variables, such as an individual's concurrent health issues or other medicines. That's why nearly all human medicines say to consult your physician before taking most medicines. We generally suggest that if a patient has a question to just call the clinic and ask.

    That said, there are plenty of medicines that are shared between humans and animals, some with new names and some with the same names. So, human medications are not to be dismissed as being entirely unsafe. They may just need to be dosed accordingly and not dosed at human adult levels.

    erica1989
    Not all vets are in the business of making money. My dr. is one that is there for the best interest of the animals, and I am going to trust his judgement when he says to NOT do it.
    My raising questions about just talking to a vet is not meant to imply the vets are evil, idiots, or out for ulterior motives. Again, it comes back to a safety issue in that the vet is trying to do what he/she knows best in terms of caring for their patients. I don't fault that at all. There are too many people who may mean well, but may not understand pharmacology enough to be able to take care of their animals.