I don't understand why...

 It's just a matter of semantics. I wouldn't get that upset about it if I were you.

I can totally understand your frustration as a trainer.  But, I can also understand the owner who does think they know what they are doing.  When Thor and Sheba were pups there were NO trainers other than a yank and crank guy where we lived, and he REQUIRED a choker.

And, I remember all the good suggestions you gave me and I too said "but".  Thor was too big and too strong to "be a tree" by that point.  There were circumstances in my case, and I' m sure many owners have stuff happen that interfers with training.  In my case, Thor moved with the family and was without me for a month, and no one tried to walk him.  By the time I got home again, the GL was useless because he fought it so badly, there wasn't an easy walk at the time and the trainers THERE were all the PetsMart kind of trainers who I'd been warned against.  Being literally dragged down the road on my rump was NOT condusive to continueing to work with him and it was find a tool that would help me to train him, or never take him for a walk again.  My glass shoulders couldn't take that kind of abuse.

Looking back, I never really leashed trained my other dogs.  They always had big yards to play in and they didn't go for walks.  Yeah, my bad.  But, I didn't see any reason to walk them.  Rusty was excellent on lead, but I think that was ONLY because of our bond and the fact that he didn't want to hurt me by pulling.  I didn't train him.  He trained himself.  As an AVERAGE OWNER I didn't know all about socialization, I didn't know about the things I know now, and for heavens sakes, how hard can a cocker pull?  Well, I found out differently with the girls.

Back to Thor.....I used a prong.  That's not a deep dark secret, even though it isn't something I'm proud of.  But, I had a trainer show me how, I used it as a TOOL and we moved on.  Thor now is the BEST leash walker I've got, but I don't think it was the prong so much as it was ME being in charge finally, and much more so, the long line work that we did later.  And, my experience with Thor taught me how to be the leader with a dog on leash without needing to be a bully.  Because of Thor, I learned to do it better and do it sooner....way sooner.  I only actually used the prong for a matter of 2-3 weeks.  Thor just didn't give it up as jewelry for months.

IF people really understood, I think many would get their pups to a trainer long before a problem crouped up.  But, just like nutrition, most people don't fully "get it" and they stumble along the way, get sticker shock over the price and figure that they can do it themselves.  And by the time they figure out that they can't, well, that's where you come in.

Breeders, rescues and shelters need to put training requirements right in the contract.  Many of them don't, yet this should be as critical as a spay/nueter clause in every adoption agreement.  Bottom line, if you educate the public, they are more willing to part with the almightly dollar to insure a long, loving relationship with the new family member.

 Glenmar, I think that spiritdogs is venting about my post regarding corrections on a soft dog. In my case, it is just semantics. I do use positive training and reward for the behaviors that I do want. But imo, there are some things that I just don't want my dogs to do. Period. and I'm looking for the most direct way to make that happen.

Well Anne I think your having a bad day.  Using words like correct or stop aren’t bad exactly.  When my son does something I don’t like I correct or stop it and the same with my dogs.  No matter how much training they have there are still times I need to stop or correct some behavior.

I think that on a dog forum “correct” for some people automatically bring ones mind to “punishment” and the same with “stopping” and as a trainer we have you to help people understand that the two are not one of the same. 

I correct and stop my dogs without punishment if it be redirection or stepping in front of them or withholding something they want.  I am still stopping or correcting what I don’t want. 

Yes, if people started training day one you would see much less of this but people are not as dog savvy as you are, most are not.  When that puppy and its adorable breathe comes into a home training is at that back of list and cuddling and playing at the front.

I think the public understands the importance of training more now than they did before, and that early training is most important.  I know I understand that better if not just because of the exposure of dog training shows on TV bringing the ideas to people heads or just because I too had a problem due to not training early.  But using words like correct and stop aren’t wrong because the people who ask this are the ones who truly need the guidance to stop and correct some bad behaviors.

I won't ever say I don't use corrections, but I try not to *train* with corrections.  When the dog is still learning something new, I try to do as I believe Anne would by setting the dog up for success so that I can teach and reward what is right.  When the dog knows what is asked and expected and has been sufficiently proofed, then I may use a correction if I'm ignored.  If I say "front!" to Coke and he won't do it, I don't correct him b/c he's still learning, instead I will lure the front and then mark and reward it.  If I say "front!" to Kenya and she ignores or does a terrible front, she will get corrected.  She knows front, proofed and all b/c she has done it in the ring and won, she has done fronts in the yard, at the club, at matches, in various competition rings, at the pet store....  If I want an even tighter front, with her standing on my toes, I won't correct for that because that is new, that was not required before, so again I lure her closer in and mark/reward as soon as she's straight and on my feet.

I've also used putting behaviors on cue with good success.  Kenya jumps up on cue, spins right and left on cue, and now we are working on barking on cue. 

  No matter how much training they have there are still times I need to stop or correct some behavior.

what anne is trying to say is that this IS NOT TRUE. If you teach the dog WHAT TO DO from day one you'll never run into a situation where you have to stop/ correct behavior.

mudpuppy

  No matter how much training they have there are still times I need to stop or correct some behavior.

what anne is trying to say is that this IS NOT TRUE. If you teach the dog WHAT TO DO from day one you'll never run into a situation where you have to stop/ correct behavior.

I disagree!  There are always new situations that need to be delt with from time to time you can't possibly be able to have a dog trained to every situation that may arise. 

mudpuppy

  No matter how much training they have there are still times I need to stop or correct some behavior.

what anne is trying to say is that this IS NOT TRUE. If you teach the dog WHAT TO DO from day one you'll never run into a situation where you have to stop/ correct behavior.

What magical world do you live in, because I'd like to live there too! The above simply doesn't hold true from my life with kids and dogs. Now, I have independent thinking kids and dogs around, so that may be part of it all. But then we get into the same old semantics of what is a correction.

- - -

We have no idea what someone's "first" question is. All we know is the first question WE see.

Dog_ma

We have no idea what someone's "first" question is. All we know is the first question WE see.

We can also never assume that the person asking the question is the one who caused the problem.  Former owners, in the case of rescues, breeders who didn't socialise young puppies properly, spouses or children who through inexperience or accident cause an unintended reaction, other dogs attacking, staff at a boarding kennel who let the dog get away with something while the owners are on a well-deserved vacation....the list goes on.  Nobody (and their dog) exists in a vacuum. 

Ok. Deep breath. But I'm feeling highly annoyed, and not out of defensiveness. I'm tired of what feels like bullying, and tired of opinions being presented as facts cut in stone. The OP basically says "If you use corrections, you're ignorant. If you need x device, its because you failed at teaching y." 

I happily walk Eko on a prong these days. Not because I failed at teaching loose leash walking, or because I did it wrong and let him pull as a puppy. Nope. He was never, ever allowed to pull successfully. From day one. Treeville. And when reasonably calm he walks beautifully.

And he's young, huge, and has a prey drive up the wazoo. One day he saw a kitty, who wasn't afraid of dogs and flaunted that fact before sauntering into the bushes. Bam! Eko put everything he had into chasing the naughty kitty. I put everything (and I do mean every last bit of energy) into stopping him. I was crouched on the ground, pulling back with all my strength. And sore as heck the next day. Give him a few more pounds, and I won't be able to do that.

That was a good wake up call, that I cannot control the beast should he get a wild hair. Now we use a prong as "insurance." And he walks nicely, loose leash and attentive to me.

So please, let's stop with the assumptions, accusations, and all the rest. It turns people off. It is tiresome, and not at all positive. 

Not because I failed at teaching loose leash walking, or because I did it wrong and let him pull as a puppy. Nope. He was never, ever allowed to pull successfully. From day one. Treeville. And when reasonably calm he walks beautifully.

And he's young, huge, and has a prey drive up the wazoo. One day he saw a kitty, who wasn't afraid of dogs and flaunted that fact before sauntering into the bushes. Bam! Eko put everything he had into chasing the naughty kitty. I put everything (and I do mean every last bit of energy) into stopping him. I was crouched on the ground, pulling back with all my strength. And sore as heck the next day. Give him a few more pounds, and I won't be able to do that.

and did you teach a "leave it" command? did you "Proof" your loose-leash walking around distractions?  easy to forsee something like this may happen and prevent it. But I agree, life happens. There is a big difference between "managing an out of control situation" and actual training. Putting a prong on a big dog just in case you end up in an emergency "manage situation" is fine by me as long as you go back and realize you're missing something in your dog's training and do your "leave it" work and your "loose leash proofing" work.  A totally different approach/mindset than planning to stop the dog from chasing cats by putting him on a prong, going out looking for cats (setting him up to fail), and yanking him violently when he goes after them.

I understand exactly how you feel.  It is the reason I no longer train other people's dogs.  Whether it's a new pupply or an adopted/rescue or senior dog;  dogs are always learning.  This is a survival skill for canines.  Lots of people think that the dog's education starts with puppy/obedience class.  I used to tell people their dog is learning all the time and mostly it's learning to do things we don't want.  It is beyond maddening to give a person advice and to have the advice ignored and then see the dog months later and the owner whining about how bad the dog is.  Dogs aren't appliances that get fixed by a trainer and then work great.  But many people don't understand that it is a life long process and when the dog gets a bad start and the owner wants a quick, cheap fix it is very hard not to rant sometimes.

Of course, there are situations that require more than rewarding good behaviour and ignoring bad behaviour.  I am not opposed to using prong collars or e-collars.  But I have known many obedience, agility and field champions that never needed this type of correction.  Sometimes it's a combination of an exceptional dog and a great dog trainer and sometimes it's just a fluke.

But imo, there are some things that I just don't want my dogs to do. Period. and I'm looking for the most direct way to make that happen.

it's some kind of mental block people have- they have trouble figuring out how to use positive methods to eliminate/prevent undesirable behaviors. It can be done. It can be done easily. It can be done quickly. You have to turn your thinking around though. Instead of thinking "I don't want my dog to jump up on people" you think "I want my dog to sit politely when greeting people". Instead of thinking "I don't want my dog lunging at passing cats" you think "I want my dog to walk politely on leash NO MATTER WHAT is going on around him".  Instead of thinking "I don't want my dogs raiding the garbage" you think "I want my dogs to walk past the garbage can without looking at it" . And hey presto non-corrective solutions THAT WORK suddenly present themselves.

mudpuppy

 Instead of thinking "I don't want my dog lunging at passing cats" you think "I want my dog to walk politely on leash NO MATTER WHAT is going on around him".

 LMAO. Easy and quick, eh? I admit my utter incompetence then.

We do take the latter philosophy, and we work on it DAILY. We have utterly failed to perfect it. And for the record, I didn't correct him for trying to chase the cat, nor do I roam the street looking for opportunities to set him up. We continue on as before, rewarding calm and attentive leash walking behavior. But he's a puppy, not a robot. He's got zest and spunk and doesn't always *want* to do what I want him to do. That is part of the frustration and joy of living with a dog. They are individuals with their own agenda, and the trick is find a way to make your agenda sound good. I haven't found it to be easy or quick, however.

You have such a black and white approach to the world, mudpuppy. Either people eschew all corrective methods are they stupidly "yank and crank" thoughtlessly.