Demodex and breeding?

I've got an intense amount of experience with demodex and its treatment.  The treatments vary widely -- but if you get the truth about the genetics it's not a dog that should be bred ... not ever.  Not only will it pass on the demodex, it's actually unkind to them not to alter them because it can make the problem far more serious and longer-lasting than if you alter them and remove that 'stressor'.

This isn't a popular concept, but I've dealt with the easy ones and the really hard ones (and the fatal cases as well). 

"localized" only means he hasn't had it 'untreated' long enough for it to spread.

Demodex is demodex -- like anything genetic, you have the flawed gene or not.  It is, by definition, a flawed immune system that is overly sensitive to a 100% common mite.  Demodex mites are literally everywhere -- virtually as common as staph bacteria.  Even you and I have demodex on our faces right now -- in the "T=zone" between your eyes/bridge of your nose. 

It's almost on the level of an 'allergy' -- for some reason the immune system doesn't keep this completely common mite under control.  The mite doesn't bite the dog at all -- in fact it never touches the blood stream.  The mite eats skin oil -- it literally sits in the skin pores or hair follicles, eats oil and .... poops. 

Yep -- that's actually where the problem is.  The poop is an irritant to the dog -- and that's what causes the flaking, sometimes itching, and then it can lead to a deeper reaction where the skin becomes irritated, staph infection sets in and then they call it 'red mange' or 'puppy mange' many times.  But always there's this double-barrelled effect -- the immune system doesn't keep the mite under control AND the dog is super-sensitive then to the presence of the mite's 'poop' as an irritant.

The fact is that this dog is likely relatively healthy -- but demodex can and will worsen as the pup ages and sexual maturation begins in earnest (which is probably the worst trigger of all for demodex, aside from things like a female going into heat, pregnancy, giving birth, etc.).  Males that are sexually mature can actually worsen and be thrown into a worse level simply by being near a female in heat.

And, worst of all, if he's allowed to reproduce he will pass on the flawed gene and it spreads like wildfire because even if a dog doesn't 'show' demodex (and it's hard to even see it sometimes) or if a breeder isn't ethical enough to admit it is in the lines -- then every pup thrown potentially carries the gene and others may not be as essentially healthy and can suffer a great deal.  With long-coated breeds it can be fiercely difficult to *find* it early on and treat.

You wouldn't *expect* a pup to show much demodex at 3 months.  It really usually doesn't even begin to show until sexual maturation occurs and then it's often undiagnosed for a while.  So if he's already showing at 3 months, that doesn't mean it's a 'light case'. 

How light or heavy it goes depends on his general health, how well taken-care of he is and how it's treated.  But simply put, he has a sub-par immune system.  That's simply a fact - it can be 'maximixed' and he can be shielded from carcinogens, the skin can be successfully treated until his body catches up to his immune system and the stress abates and the demodex no longer 'shows' -- but he will ALWAYS be a demodex dog.  As such he needs to be treated a bit special -- vaccines sparingly and judiciously used, food that doesn't contain carcinogens, spayed/neutered absolutely as early as possible (it's a mistake to wait even to 6 months honestly becuase the onset of sexual maturation can worsen it so badly and you honestly don't want to risk an oops litter and truly it's kinder to them to remove sexual maturation as a trigger.

If you want to email me I would be glad to send you an article I've done on treatment (don't pm -- it's in a document and I can't attach it to a PM).  You're welcome to give it to her.  Vets often don't wax eloquent about demodex -- and they hate to give their clients who want to breed the "bad news". 

Thanks for the information.  This is what I was afraid of, but I'm glad I found someone who has dealt with it and could give me a straightforward response.  It's going to be tough telling his owners, but they definitely need to hear it and I'm probably the only one that's going to tell them.  The good thing is that this pup is already on a raw diet and they've decided to go with no vaccines.  The neutering may be a problem because, if they were going to neuter him, they like to wait until the males are more developed.  I'm sure they'll probably make an exception in this case.  Dang, I just hate this!  But really, thanks for the good information. 

 Could you send the treatment article here? - aallstun1s@semo.edu

Done

I dont see a need to neuter him prior to full bone and muscular development provided they do good management and allow no accidental breedings.  I stand with Callie on this one,,,take him out of the gene pool.  Just because it is not too much of an issue in this dog,,, who knows about future generations.  And if they are doing no vaccines, I would suggest titres since the dog will come in contact with many animals.  Hate to see  a pup go down to an illness that could be prevented.

I would not breed a dog with demodex. There ARE breeds where it has a high incidence and if they did not breed any dog with it, they'd have none to breed...so it's not a knockout factor for them. IMO this comes about from "oh it's just localized what's the harm" to the nth power. Just say no...lol.

mrv

I dont see a need to neuter him prior to full bone and muscular development provided they do good management and allow no accidental breedings.  I stand with Callie on this one,,,take him out of the gene pool.  Just because it is not too much of an issue in this dog,,, who knows about future generations.  And if they are doing no vaccines, I would suggest titres since the dog will come in contact with many animals.  Hate to see  a pup go down to an illness that could be prevented.

I'll see what the owner and our trainer thinks is best, but I'll let them know all the information first.  Since he will still be a working dog, they're probably going to want to wait to neuter him.  If he was just going to be a pet, it wouldn't be a problem.  And I believe they were planning on doing titres anyway, before all of this came up.  They're all about the holistic health stuff (which I'm just learning about), so I'm not sure how they'd planned on doing things before, besides that they weren't planning on any vaccines except rabies.  They may change their minds on that, though, since he does already have a weakened immune system. We shall see...ultimately it's not my decision, but I hope they go the right way and I'm going to try to convince them of all this. 

rwbeagles

I would not breed a dog with demodex. There ARE breeds where it has a high incidence and if they did not breed any dog with it, they'd have none to breed...so it's not a knockout factor for them. IMO this comes about from "oh it's just localized what's the harm" to the nth power. Just say no...lol.

 Definitely understand where you're coming from.  I didn't know too much about the way it worked genetically, which is why I asked for more info.  Now that I know more, I'm going to give this info to them and try to convince them that neutering is the way to go for many reasons.  We'll see what happens, I suppose, but I think they'll see it for what it is.  It's just so sad because they were super excited about this pup.  They already have a male GSD they had to neuter because his temperament just didn't turn out well.  He's a great pet, but a horrible working dog -- skittish, barks at everything, etc., even though he was very well socialized. 

calliecritturs

"localized" only means he hasn't had it 'untreated' long enough for it to spread.

I just want to disagree with this statement. Plenty of dogs do get "localized" demodex. A small patch that goes away on its own and never returns. Yes it does happen. My girl had a dime sized spot on her head about the time of her first heat. She never had another one and was not altered until she was about seven.

PLEASE do not take one sentence out of that post -- it's all got to be taken together -- "How light or heavy it goes depends on his general health, how well taken-care of he is and how it's treated. "

There are a myriad of different situations that can occur -- demodex usually resolves on its own -- OFTEN people don't even realize the dog has it.  It *completely* depends on a zillion factors working together.  Get it?  Some dogs will get just one spot and no more because they have a good enough nutritional backup, they are well treated and even other genetic considerations impact it. 

I was specifically commenting on the word "localized" meaning that it's just a spot or two in one place on or near the face.  The longer that goes on it becomes generalized.  It isn't that some is "localized" and some "generalized" like some bath tissue is sold in single rolls and some is sold by the 16 pack.  Occasionally with the right set of circumstances, the right food, the right care, and the right environment and love it stops before it generalizes.  Sometimes those things -- even if they aren't pharmaceuticals, herbs or something specifically done FOR demodex -- SOMETIMES just good care is enough to kickstart the immune system so that it stops.

 I totally disagree with what has been posted. There is no "gene" for demodex and a puppy's immune system is not mature. Most dogs have demodectic mites (and we may have them in our eyebrows - ewww), what happens to cause the hairloss is the mites overpopulating. Vaccination, stress and exposure to disease can all IMO allow a small population of mites to overpopulate for a short time on a puppy. Plenty of dogs get a single localized spot and never have it again. IMO that isn't a reason, especially with a puppy to say they should never be bred.

Also I would suggest using only natural means to treat this problem by boosting the immune system. The traditional treatment of it is to dump a bunch of poison in and on the dog, which IMO should be only a last resort.

A couple articles:

http://www.thewholedog.org/artDemodex.html

http://www.purelypets.com/articles/demodex.htm

AgileGSD

 I totally disagree with what has been posted. There is no "gene" for demodex and a puppy's immune system is not mature. Most dogs have demodectic mites (and we may have them in our eyebrows - ewww), what happens to cause the hairloss is the mites overpopulating. Vaccination, stress and exposure to disease can all IMO allow a small population of mites to overpopulate for a short time on a puppy. Plenty of dogs get a single localized spot and never have it again. IMO that isn't a reason, especially with a puppy to say they should never be bred.

Also I would suggest using only natural means to treat this problem by boosting the immune system. The traditional treatment of it is to dump a bunch of poison in and on the dog, which IMO should be only a last resort.

A couple articles:

http://www.thewholedog.org/artDemodex.html

http://www.purelypets.com/articles/demodex.htm

 That's what I initially had thought, but I didn't really know much about what was really going on there.  I'm sure he had been a little stressed out because he had just started puppy classes and had just gotten separated from his "sister" (they weren't actually from the same litter, but from the same breeder and had been together for a long while).  I'm hoping that it won't come back later on.  And they're definitely not dipping him or anything.  I believe they were giving him (or maybe were going to if the cream didn't help) Ivermectin, but they've also been using this cream that is supposed to be kind of a homeopathic remedy.  Not sure what it is, but they're definitely not doing dips or anything major.  It's actually much better and you can hardly tell.  The spot on his nose is gone and he just has a tiny bit around his eye.  Yay!  :)

AgileGSD

I totally disagree with what has been posted. There is no "gene" for demodex and a puppy's immune system is not mature. Most dogs have demodectic mites (and we may have them in our eyebrows - ewww), what happens to cause the hairloss is the mites overpopulating. Vaccination, stress and exposure to disease can all IMO allow a small population of mites to overpopulate for a short time on a puppy. Plenty of dogs get a single localized spot and never have it again. IMO that isn't a reason, especially with a puppy to say they should never be bred.

Also I would suggest using only natural means to treat this problem by boosting the immune system. The traditional treatment of it is to dump a bunch of poison in and on the dog, which IMO should be only a last resort.

Of course a pup's immune system isn't 'mature' -- that's part of it.  But you're welcome to do the hundreds of hours of care I've put into studying and dealing with this, and I assure you, it *is* genetic.  It's also more common in certain breeds, but typically is more rampant in dogs that haven't been well bred and dogs with demodex in their lines have continued to be bred.  Unfortunately, also the more 'popular' a breed the more you tend to find demodex be problematic.  But certain breed families, like the bully breeds (from pugs to pits and everything in between) tend to have worse problems because the immune systems tend to be late to mature. 

The numbers say about 65 - 85% of dogs with demodex self-resolve.  That means that it "just goes away" either as the dog matures or as the dog's situation gets better.  It's also often assumed to have resolved because on longer-coated breeds it can be harder to see.

But that doesn't make it less gene-related.  That's readily apparent in the fact that often dogs won't develop it until 'puberty' .... LONG after they've left the sire/dam or home situation.  But develop it in family lines?  Oh certainly they do.

And if you had investigated what I've written in the past or asked for my article, you'd find that's exactly what I do -- help folks to deal with this in a more natural way rather than using a pesticide like ivermectin (which often becomes habit-forming and actually will eventually depress the immune system further in many situations), or worse yet something like amitraz which can be lethal.   

And you might want to talk to your dermatologist the next time you see them -- demodex mites are part of mammalian life.  Pretty much any species that is a mammal and has hair carries demodex mites to one degree or another.

Workingdoglover

 That's what I initially had thought, but I didn't really know much about what was really going on there.  I'm sure he had been a little stressed out because he had just started puppy classes and had just gotten separated from his "sister" (they weren't actually from the same litter, but from the same breeder and had been together for a long while).  I'm hoping that it won't come back later on.  And they're definitely not dipping him or anything.  I believe they were giving him (or maybe were going to if the cream didn't help) Ivermectin, but they've also been using this cream that is supposed to be kind of a homeopathic remedy.  Not sure what it is, but they're definitely not doing dips or anything major.  It's actually much better and you can hardly tell.  The spot on his nose is gone and he just has a tiny bit around his eye.  Yay!  :)

 Great! Providing that it doesn't become an ongoing issue, there is IMO no reason to not breed him because of this (if he turns out of course).

calliecritturs

But that doesn't make it less gene-related.  That's readily apparent in the fact that often dogs won't develop it until 'puberty' .... LONG after they've left the sire/dam or home situation.  But develop it in family lines?  Oh certainly they do.

And if you had investigated what I've written in the past or asked for my article, you'd find that's exactly what I do -- help folks to deal with this in a more natural way rather than using a pesticide like ivermectin (which often becomes habit-forming and actually will eventually depress the immune system further in many situations), or worse yet something like amitraz which can be lethal.   

And you might want to talk to your dermatologist the next time you see them -- demodex mites are part of mammalian life.  Pretty much any species that is a mammal and has hair carries demodex mites to one degree or another.

You certainly are defensive about this subject. I have researched this quite a lot actually but feel free to send your article, as I am always looking for new info. I do feel there is likely some genetic predisposition but I feel the environment plays a big part as well. IMO it is often brought on by too much stress on a young puppy's under developed immune system and nothing more. I just don't feel a puppy with a small patch that clears up quickly is out of the question to breed. Some dogs have issues with vaccine or drug sensitivity, which is due to the functioning of the immune system. Do you feel such a problem also indicates a dog is not breeding quality?