Demodex and breeding?

AgileGSD

You certainly are defensive about this subject. I have researched this quite a lot actually but feel free to send your article,

AgileGSD

 IMO it is often brought on by too much stress on a young puppy's under developed immune system and nothing more. I just don't feel a puppy with a small patch that clears up quickly is out of the question to breed. Some dogs have issues with vaccine or drug sensitivity, which is due to the functioning of the immune system. Do you feel such a problem also indicates a dog is not breeding quality?

*all* puppies are stressed -- waking up today with your feet a different length than they were yesterday, new teeth where there were none, and someone being fussy about where you put your poop?  it's all stressful.  Seriously -- puppies are born after only a few weeks gestation and shoot, so immature that their eyes can't see and their ears can't hear so much of growth takes place "in the open". 

You're absolutely correct that many puppies get vaccines too early and too many of them.  But that's not the sole determining factor of getting demodex -- it's a contributor when a dog has the genetic pre-disposition to it however. 

AgileGSD

You certainly are defensive about this subject. I have researched this quite a lot actually but feel free to send your article, as I am always looking for new info. 

Yes, I'm extremely defensive on this subject because it's part of what I do -- I help people KEEP their dogs and get their dogs better when they have this horrible problem, I help them figure out how to build up the immune system and get them better and not have to euthanize them.  Honestly, my tally is something like 3000 dogs or better I've been able to help.

And it's all because someone chose to breed a dog they knew had demodex, or a dog they didn't bother to find out if demodex (and other problems) were in the lines.  Remember, it's not just the pups that this one pup may have ... it's generational ... it goes on and on, so when that dog remains in the gene pool and it's puppies puppies are having puppies in someone's backyard (maybe because grandpa was a 'champion' so they claim) and then Mr. and Mrs. Average get this dog who smells and is red and raw all over 3 weeks after they 'adopted' it -- and the vet says "well, demodex can be a problem and the dips are about $150 each ... do you want me to put him to sleep?"

You bet I get defensive.  Because if breeders would just NOT breed a dog with demodex in their lines then it would stop there.

 If you want my article email me -- I can't pm it, because it's in Word and PM's don't allow attachments.  It's 23 pages.  I'm not going to post it.  If you distribute it, which is fine, just make sure my email address goes with it so I can help whomever it's given to.

My Am Staff, Rosco, was adopted at 4 months old with a patch of demodex on his chin. Not large, localized and we were told it wouldn't be a big deal for him. The vets were wrong. He is one of the dogs that deals with it for life, probably due to a poor immune system, and we follow Callie's protocol when it flairs up.

At 6 years old, whenever he is the least bit stressed, it flairs up. Here is a photo taken a day ago, we spent a long weekend away from home (with Rosco), and that was all it took for his chin to be in almost full flair up mode. (It gets worse than this, cracks, bleeds and is painful for him.)

Please advise your friend of this. It's can be a life-long battle that is painful for the dog, and if that pain can be avoided for future generations, it should.
 

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

My Am Staff, Rosco, was adopted at 4 months old with a patch of demodex on his chin. Not large, localized and we were told it wouldn't be a big deal for him. The vets were wrong. He is one of the dogs that deals with it for life, probably due to a poor immune system, and we follow Callie's protocol when it flairs up.

At 6 years old, whenever he is the least bit stressed, it flairs up. Here is a photo taken a day ago, we spent a long weekend away from home (with Rosco), and that was all it took for his chin to be in almost full flair up mode. (It gets worse than this, cracks, bleeds and is painful for him.)

Please advise your friend of this. It's can be a life-long battle that is painful for the dog, and if that pain can be avoided for future generations, it should.
 

 That is sad and terrible for Roscoe BUT that is also not the norm with demodex. Considering the dog in question is a young puppy and already recovering, there is no need for the "advise your friend the dog is doomed for life" stuff.

 I also wonder how many vaccines did Roscoe receive while he had the demodex? Was he neutered while he had it? How was he treated to start with? I have seen shelter dogs come in with small patches of demodex then get 8 way combo vaccines, altered, wormed and dipped. No surprise if they end up with more severe problems, since the demodex is sign that the immunje system needs help - not chemicals and drugs dumped into it. I also wonder does he only get it on his chin? It is hard to tell from the picture but it rather looks like chin acne, something common in Amstaffs/APBTs.

Mod request 

Let's keep this thread on topic which is Demodex as pertains to BREEDING decisions. The treatment and diagnosis of it, in general...would make an interesting thread in the other Health area...Thanks.

calliecritturs

And it's all because someone chose to breed a dog they knew had demodex, or a dog they didn't bother to find out if demodex (and other problems) were in the lines.  Remember, it's not just the pups that this one pup may have ... it's generational ... it goes on and on, so when that dog remains in the gene pool and it's puppies puppies are having puppies in someone's backyard (maybe because grandpa was a 'champion' so they claim) and then Mr. and Mrs. Average get this dog who smells and is red and raw all over 3 weeks after they 'adopted' it -- and the vet says "well, demodex can be a problem and the dips are about $150 each ... do you want me to put him to sleep?"

Are you a vet? Just wondering due to some things you have posted. It is great that you are able to help people but honestly demodex is generally not a life threatening or expensive illness. I wouldn't ever advise dipping unless as an absolute last resort and wish vets wouldn't push it so much. Most dogs IME recover on their own and IME dipping usually only seems to make the problem worse (no surprise since it is poisoning a dog with an already poor immune system).

 Do you feel that any dog in a line which has ever had a dog develop demodex should never be bred? Your views on breeding and how easy it is to prevent problems seem idealistic and common of people who don't have much experience with it. You also seem to blame it on show breeders (with the comment that "grandpa was a champion";) and I am unsure why.

 I know a GSD who developed a spot of demodex on her face but none of her littermates did, none of her sibling's puppies either. This dog was taken back by the breeder after her owner was arrested for animal cruelty - had a filthy house with dead animals, *** and all the bad things you hear about (and was knowledgeable about dogs, went to training and didn't seem at all questionable FWIW). Could be this dog would have never developed demodex except she was living in a situation that was taking it's toll on her immune system. She wasn't treated for it and it never came back, she is five years old now and a working police dog. One of my parvo puppies developed a spot on her face while she was recovering. The vet didn't seem to think it was a huge problem and was just due to her having almost no immunity at that point. It cleared up quickly with no treatment (within a couple weeks) and has never returned. Two of the others developed bacterial abcesses also due to their lowered immunity to "stuff" - those needed treatment though. Those guys are about to turn a year old and have never had any healthy issues since they recovered from parvo and the related problems.

 It is funny that you act as though because many puppies receive too many vaccines and/or vaccines too youngand/or poor quality food on top of the normal puppy stress that all puppies should be able to tolerate it. They don't all develop demodex but how many end up with ongoing skin problems, hot spots, ear infections, allergies or some other sign that their immune system isn't functioning right. Working with people's pet dogs day in and day out I can tell you that most people think these problems are "normal" and "just things dogs get" because they are so wide spread. You never answered my question about dogs which have drug or vaccine sensitivity issues but I really am curious to know if, since it is a immune system issue you feel they should also not be bred? It has been found that dogs of a dilute color are more likely to have vaccine reactions than other dogs - should all dilutes be taken out of the gene pool too? It all relates to how the immune system functions after all.

My apologies if that seemed like gloom and doom, that's not what I intended -- just that vets can be wrong, and some dogs do struggle with it for life and it's no fun. So for me, the breeding decision is easy -- prevent potential future problems/pain by not breeding the dog in question.

I understand we all have our own opinions, so to each his own.

Please feel free to PM me if you are curious about Rosco's chin -- it's not very exciting, but more than 3 doctors have come to the same diagnosis, so I am inclined to think it's demodex.

AgileGSD

Are you a vet? Just wondering due to some things you have posted. It is great that you are able to help people but honestly demodex is generally not a life threatening or expensive illness. I wouldn't ever advise dipping unless as an absolute last resort and wish vets wouldn't push it so much. Most dogs IME recover on their own and IME dipping usually only seems to make the problem worse (no surprise since it is poisoning a dog with an already poor immune system).

No, I'm not a vet -- simply have done rescue for many years and have taken on several dogs with demodex (most were severe cases), and in order to help one of them my husband and I have gone to extraordinary measures to treat and deal with the demodex and because of our own frustration in the lack of 'help' from most vets we've tried to be a source for others in desperate circumstances. 

If you look above (or it may be another post - there are several demodex topics concurrently) the "statistics" say that between 65% - 85% of dogs with demodex will 'self-resolve'.  This isn't one statistic -- it's a generalized one from many different sources I've read.  Sure, it happens.  Usually it's a combination of the immune system catching up with itself and good care on the part of the owner. 

AgileGSD

Do you feel that any dog in a line which has ever had a dog develop demodex should never be bred? Your views on breeding and how easy it is to prevent problems seem idealistic and common of people who don't have much experience with it. You also seem to blame it on show breeders (with the comment that "grandpa was a champion";) and I am unsure why.

I think any dog that has demodex in its lines shouldn't be bred. 

You're leaping to huge conclusions with your comment about show breeders.  It's simply that most backyard breeders tend to have wonderful claims, and often exaggerated claims about the lineage of their dogs.  It ranges from "I saw the mother and father and they looked nice!" to claims about "champions" of one sort or another. 

AgileGSD

This dog was taken back by the breeder after her owner was arrested for animal cruelty - had a filthy house with dead animals, *** and all the bad things you hear about (and was knowledgeable about dogs, went to training and didn't seem at all questionable FWIW). Could be this dog would have never developed demodex except she was living in a situation that was taking it's toll on her immune system. She wasn't treated for it and it never came back, she is five years old now and a working police dog.

Hopefully the other pups were placed better -- and simply that they received better care, better food, and generally were kept better and healthier than the one in the horrid placement.  Therefore the others may never have been stressed enough to react -- and not *every* pup in a litter will display demodex.  But it can also skip generations that way --

In fact, this is a really good example of why I maintain that dogs with demodex in their lines shouldn't be bred -- because altho "good breeders" may be extremely careful, you will always find some owners are going to do it wrong.  And suddenly you get a dog that may never have shown demodex as a pup, but who carries it in their lines is suddenly having puppies in a less-controlled situation, and several of the pups turn up with demodex.

The only prevention for that is if those breeding ethically don't breed dogs with demodex in their lines.

AgileGSD

 It is funny that you act as though because many puppies receive too many vaccines and/or vaccines too youngand/or poor quality food on top of the normal puppy stress that all puppies should be able to tolerate it. 

I didn't say that. *shaking my head* and you SURE aren't familiar with anything I've posted or you wouldn't even imply that.

I happen to have a dog who has survived IMHA.  Immune-mediated hemolytic anemia.  MAJOR auto-immune disease that is most often fatal.  Typically IMHA is triggered by vaccinations or other pharmaceuticals.  Billy's wasn't.  His was triggered by a tick bite. 

It's simply that vaccines are a whole different topic.  You might want to check out Kris Christine's posts on the Rabies Challenge Study and some of the other vaccine topics on here. 

It's simply that yes, vaccines are a *major* trigger for demodex in a dog that is genetically pre--disposed to demodex.  Now, if you want to talk about all the other heinous things that vaccines can do when over-done or improperly done in puppies that's a whole different thread.  *my* personal thing happens to be demodex simply because I have so much experience with it.

AgileGSD

You never answered my question about dogs which have drug or vaccine sensitivity issues but I really am curious to know if, since it is a immune system issue you feel they should also not be bred? It has been found that dogs of a dilute color are more likely to have vaccine reactions than other dogs - should all dilutes be taken out of the gene pool too? It all relates to how the immune system functions after all.

I'm not going to address it -- it's not anything I'm experienced in and I'm not a breeder.

Please understand where I'm coming from and it will explain much to you.  I do rescue.  All-breed rescue.  Sick dog rescue.  I tend to pick dogs that have skin problems, or geriatric problems ... and then I also wind up dealing with problems that my dogs have developed (like the IMHA thing with Billy -- and trust me, I only know of two buffy coat cocker spaniels who have developed IMHA who have survived it ... and Billy's one of them.  The mortality rate for that is unbelievably high and yeah, I'm more than a little proud of my guy!  He's a major trooper.)

I'm not anti-breeder.  But I do try to help educate because so many breeders have tried to justify allowing demodex in their lines.  It's not something that any breed clubs have sponsored AKC studies, and because it's considered by the veteinary world as a "poor-breeding" result there have never been any major veterinary studies funded for it.  Hence there are no real treatments pharmaceutically that work well. And most of them try to treat it from a "kill the mites" standpoint rather than boosting the immune system. 

calliecritturs

In fact, this is a really good example of why I maintain that dogs with demodex in their lines shouldn't be bred -- because altho "good breeders" may be extremely careful, you will always find some owners are going to do it wrong.  And suddenly you get a dog that may never have shown demodex as a pup, but who carries it in their lines is suddenly having puppies in a less-controlled situation, and several of the pups turn up with demodex.

 If breeders stopped breeding all dogs who had any relative which had any genetic diseases or genetic predispositions, there would be no dogs left to breed. As I said before - your opinions on breeding are very idealistic and very typical of pet owners who have no breeding experience. No dog or line has only perfect genes to pass on but breeding sure would be easy if such dogs exsisted :)

AgileGSD

 If breeders stopped breeding all dogs who had any relative which had any genetic diseases or genetic predispositions, there would be no dogs left to breed.

But you *can* stop breeding for problems for which there is no satisfactory and safe cure or 'fix'. 

And specifically, I'm not lumping ALL genetic problems together -- *You* continue to do so.  This thread is about demodex and breeding.  It's not at all the same as typical breed-related genetic problems, but it is one that is exacerbated to a great deal by bad breeding practices. 

No, I'm not a breeder.  I simply wind up helping to cleaning up the "messes" that breeders who don't do their job ethically make and try to help save the lives, and often the quality of life, of the dogs ultimately produced when breeders deliberately breed dogs with demodex in their lines. 

calliecritturs

But you *can* stop breeding for problems for which there is no satisfactory and safe cure or 'fix'. 

And specifically, I'm not lumping ALL genetic problems together -- *You* continue to do so.  This thread is about demodex and breeding.  It's not at all the same as typical breed-related genetic problems, but it is one that is exacerbated to a great deal by bad breeding practices. 

No, I'm not a breeder.  I simply wind up helping to cleaning up the "messes" that breeders who don't do their job ethically make and try to help save the lives, and often the quality of life, of the dogs ultimately produced when breeders deliberately breed dogs with demodex in their lines. 

 Honestly as far as severity of problems dogs can have localized demodex would be pretty low on my list. Not one which I would cull a whole line for to be sure and certainly not because someone who is not a breeder, has no breeding experience thinks it is "the only way". And there really isn't a difference between saying that people should never breed any dog who has had a relative with demodex and saying people should never breed any dog that has had a relative with HD, ED, allergies, epilepsy and a whole host of other problems. The easy fact of the matter is that breeding is hard, genes don't always do what you hope for them to do but getting rid of entire lines of dogs is often unreasonable. In breeds with low numbers, you can't simply throw out every dogs with a relative who has X problem or pretty quickly you have more and more problems. To be honest I am unsure there are many collies out there who don't have at least one relative who has had demodex. These are good articles about disease control in breeding programs if you are interested:

http://www.ashgi.org/articles/breeding_bad_genes.htm

http://www.gdca.org/health/breeddiseasecontrol.htm

 http://www.gdca.org/health/ctrlgendisease.htm

  Do you feel that problems such as demodex only come from bad breeders? You certainly seem to be blaming breeders for this problem and have an anti-breeder attitude. It is the breeder's fault these dogs have demodex and their fault you have to "clean up" their messes.

You somehow seem to have the erroneous idea that localized demodex is always just localized.  "localized" simply means it's in a small area ... NOW. 

But "localized", without treatment and helping the immune system to develop as it should always has the *potential* to generalize.  It's the defnition of what localized is. 

And according to Webster a 'breeder' is simply "one who breeds" -- no qualification of good, bad or otherwise.  And the dogs sure don't decide ... they do what's inate. 

You're making your own self-fulfilling mountain out of a molehill.  Demodex is not related to any specific breed -- it's a poor-breeding issue more than anything. It's simply something that should take any dog of any breed out of contention to be bred. 

And frankly, collies aren't even high on the list of breeds that have a problem with it.  Occasionally, yes, sure -- but not nearly the high incidence of other breeds.  More difficult, likely, to treat because of the ivermectin issue so you may hear more of it because there is less of an easy answer to the mind of those who just want to reach for a drug.