Online Communities = Support vs. Enabling

KarissaKS

You can't take online communities so seriously.

But, isn't that what you are doing?  Taking it so seriously and personally that you feel compelled to offer your very frank opinion of how someone else should live their life?  And insulting them in the process. Yes, a thick skin may be required because when you post and ask for advice it may not be what you want to hear.  Someone may ask how do I get my dog to quit doing " fill in the blank" and every single response is the same but the person asking doesn't want to listen because for WHATEVER reason they don't want to hear THAT solution.  Oh well, they ask, I give my opinion or advice based on my experience.  If they choose to ignore the advice, it's not going to convince them if I start insulting them personally.

Calling people who support others "enablers" is just trying to get around the fact that when you start insulting people, it's rude. I am a fairly blunt person and I have sometimes struggled to find ways to say things that won't offend or more importantly hurt someone's feelings.  You may think it gives them the slap in the face they need but that rarely works in real life, so why would it work online?  Sure, sometimes I want to scream in frustration at some of the things people post about, truly just scream.  But if I jump in, guns blazing and eyes flashing with righteous indignation, telling someone how they screwed up, blah, blah  it just makes ME look like a mean spirited witch but if I sidle in with a smile and a hug, maybe I can plant a seed for their late night consideration.  That's learned from life experience, maturity has it's benefits.

My last point is that I don't care if someone did the stupidest, most lame brained thing and it caused all sorts of bad things to happen.  If they need some emotional support, I'll give it.  I have lived long enough to know that we all make mistakes and bad judgement calls and being human means being able to reach out to each other and give a hand up and a hug.  If that makes me an enabler, ok by me.  :) 

 I think there are various ways of offering input/feedback that can still be direct but not offensive and/or attacking. That isn't helpful to anyone. I do think that the fact we are tied to a large company that strives to be super duper dog friendly means that heated debates are less likely to be permitted. I do think that sometimes this is unfortunate because it does reduce the exchange of information and ideas. Another issue this forum has is that minors access it some some topics sort of need an 'over 18' tag and should not be accessible by minors.

As the mod that tends to let more slide I totally understand the frustration that one can feel when adults are censored from acting like adults.  This at times is unfortunate but it is the way that dog.com wants it to be.  I belong to a NDR forum that has a special 'request access' only section that is for the brave LOL

Finally verbal attacks are integral to healthy debate.  One can express a difference of opinion or a negative opinion without being nasty.  It takes more thought and time but it's doable

Ok, I am horrible at spliting points so here it goes. 

KarissaKS

I feel there is a fine line between online communities offering support to their members vs. enabling bad decisions/choices/behavior.

Yep.

You see it everywhere -- certain posters rally around the person having the "problem" and viciously attack anyone who might step in to point out anything negative (even though said negative thing may be true or based on things that a poster has written in the past).  True "mama bear" syndrome.

Ummm, what about the people who visciously attack a person based on what they would do and what the other person did wrong in their perception? calling someone you have never met lazy? Can't have it both ways.

Enabling someone to continue their bad behaviors or choices doesn't help them.

No it does not. But this is the internet, you don't live in the same state, the same county, the same town, the same street. You live hundreds of miles away from the situation. Outside of supporting or NOT SUPPORTING someone, you really cannot do much more, which means, do not respond, do not participate. You do know the saying "for the first time, it's shame on them, the second time it's shame on YOU".

espencer

All her other threads in the NDR forum were about her being lonely, depressed, without friends, etc. Even when that was unfortunate it was just another indication that she was not in the best position to deal with all these dogs. She was getting all these dogs for the wrong reasons and she was hurting them more than helping them. She ended putting the dog to sleep (she already had one down before)

The point is that some people decide to go "the easy way" and put their dogs to sleep for their lack of experience or just pure ignorance of not knowing how to deal with the problem. They come out with the "quality of the dog's life" card. A quality that the owner didnt know or didnt want to provide. Most forum members enable this ignorance and stupidity by offering comfort to the ignorant owner.

If the owner does not want to hear opposite views then i would advise them to discuss their bad decisions in their facebook page where he/she can be sure that only comfort will be offered

There are many other issues outside of what we read on the forum to evaluating ones living conditions or their ability to properly care for their dogs can be pretty vague. We work off the information given to us and guess what....that might just be a smoke and mirrors attempt to get a rise out of members on a forum...mild trolling comes to mind.

Issue then comes to play for the "trolled" member who falls into play and starts suggesting what they should do, name calling or plain old attacking behavior due to what they think is right. Even is your mild troll is the bad one, the one who exhibits the behavior that is evident is the one who ends up getting the visit from the mods/admin. Supporting/enabling takes on a whole nother thought doesn't it?!?!

 Jackie, what a wonderfuly thought out post, thank you for sharing it, I agree completely.

 Support is different than enabling... I've given support to someone I didn't agree with.  Did I CONDONE what they did/said?  No.  But, it's not my life.  Not my decisions... not my place to decide what is best for them.

 Several old adages come to mind with "walking in someone elses shoes..." "living in glass houses..." etc, etc, etc. 

 You can look at it this way, Karissa, some people are disagreeing with you, and you don't seem to think of it as a wake up call... you are actively disagreeing, which is fine.  But, why should anyone else be different?

Think on that one for a bit.

espencer

Totally true, a couple years back there was a member in this forum that was thinking about putting her dog to sleep because it was too aggressive with the other house dogs.

The pity vote came over and over, offering "comfort" and "support" because of her decision. Me and a couple other members called her out by what she was: a hoarder. Picking up dogs from the street over and over again while she was not having the resources or experience to take care properly of these dogs. She kept bringing new dogs while still having the aggressive dog at home and instead on working the issues of the aggressive dog she just kept getting new ones.

All her other threads in the NDR forum were about her being lonely, depressed, without friends, etc. Even when that was unfortunate it was just another indication that she was not in the best position to deal with all these dogs. She was getting all these dogs for the wrong reasons and she was hurting them more than helping them. She ended putting the dog to sleep (she already had one down before)

The point is that some people decide to go "the easy way" and put their dogs to sleep for their lack of experience or just pure ignorance of not knowing how to deal with the problem. They come out with the "quality of the dog's life" card. A quality that the owner didn't know or didn't want to provide. Most forum members enable this ignorance and stupidity by offering comfort to the ignorant owner.

If the owner does not want to hear opposite views then i would advise them to discuss their bad decisions in their facebook page where he/she can be sure that only comfort will be offered

Really?

 Let me ask this.

Do you remember someone suggesting that another member should put her dog down because it had SA and she crated it? Or how about the one that was told she should seriously consider divorcing her husband? Oh, and the one who felt someone was taking the easy road because they thought drugs might help solve a problem?

Why do those people feel that they are the only ones with the right answer? That their advice and opinion is the only one that matters? Why do these people get bent out of shape because others come and slap back at them and defend the one they are attacking?

I personally think it is an over active sense of self importance, arrogance and the thought that they can do no wrong. It's my way or the highway! How hard it must be to live with people like that.

This is the internet people, unless you live in the same town, have dinner, drinks, or par take in personal activities with someone you need to rein in your personal feelings about a situation. Offer advice if asked, but don't think your important enough to get mad if that advice is not listened to.

rwbeagles

It's almost like we can't win either way

LOL - ain't it the truth!

rwbeagles

There are certainly other places where that is not the case.

Exactly! If a style of a particular forum doesn't work for you, don't use it. I'm here, so it must be working for me. By the way, there are lots of dog forums that make this one sound wild.  

Sera_J

You can look at it this way, Karissa, some people are disagreeing with you, and you don't seem to think of it as a wake up call... you are actively disagreeing, which is fine.  But, why should anyone else be different?

Think on that one for a bit.

What is to think about?  I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me.  I'm not running to a mod and asking them to ban another user who has a differing viewpoint.  I'm actively debating it -- or at least attempting to in my own way.  I think disagreements are HEALTHY.  I enjoy debating and discussing differences of opinions.  I do NOT enjoy moderators who take offense to debate and don't allow discussion of any kind.

For example, I recently received an e-mail from Dog.com saying that my password has been changed.  I'm assuming that the mods did that to try to silence me.  I feel that is completely inappropriate.  While I will admit that perhaps I overstepped *their* boundries in calling someone else's spouse a loser, I don't feel that debating my point on THIS thread is ban-worthy.  This is a discussion.  I am not allowed to discuss my feelings about the rules?

KarissaKS

I do NOT enjoy moderators who take offense to debate and don't allow discussion of any kind.

Perhaps you've outgrown this forum, then. 

Take what you like and leave the rest.

I for one like how this place is moderated, and yeah I've been red inked too!  I belong to 4 different forums that I post on daily and they are all in very different places on the spectrum of what is allowed.  One is referred to (by others) as the "Wild Wild West" because it is not moderated at all and some of the insults their even make me cringe.  This forum is actually less moderated (at least judging by the amount of red ink or warnings posted) than some of the others, but happens to be the most refreshing for me because there is a balance of discussion vs. lightheartedness.  I do not openly discuss politics or religion here because I use another forum that is just setup and moderated better for that.  The NDR forum here is the most "chatty" of all the chat/open/general topic forums I belong to and I like that.  Not saying debates should be banned but I go elsewhere for that and I'd bet I'm not the only one.

I think at some point we've all been guilty of posting something we really didn't want the answer to.  I don't mind giving or reading advice that might be hard to swallow but for me there is a difference between someone giving an opinion because they genuinely care or have experience in that situation and someone who is basically posting insults.

Maybe I'm participating in a different forum?  I'm involved in plenty of discussions and some debates.  There are areas of the forum that I don't visit much because some of the major players there are so set that THEIR way is the only way that it's not worth my effort cuz I know I won't make a dent in their armor.

I have some dear friends here.  I have gotten tremendous emotional support in times of need from this forum.  And, there are folks here who can't stand me.  Oh well.  It's the internet.  It's not like I'm being rejected by my mother or anything.  My life does not rise and fall based on whats said here.  BUT, when I need a shoulder to cry on when things are tough, I can do that HERE, where I can't in real life.  There is good and bad in every person, every thing, every situation.  I guess the bottom line is, if someone doesn't enjoy the forum, they shouldn't be here.

The mods do a tough job and my personal feeling is that if you have an issue with a particular mod, you need to take that issue TO that mod, or if that doesn't float your boat, go to an Admin.  But public floggings of mods should be as against the rules as public floggings of any other member.

sharismom

KarissaKS

I do NOT enjoy moderators who take offense to debate and don't allow discussion of any kind.

Perhaps you've outgrown this forum, then. 

Take what you like and leave the rest.

Well I'll tell you, I am the last one you'll see taking anything "personal" when I step in and you see me it is because someone has stepped over what is acceptable on the forum.

There are rules, they should be followed and when someone decides not to change their behavior when it is notified then it is their own result in the end when it comes enforcing the rules.

I can allow a lot, in fact I probably allow some of the most when things are borderline. The topic of support vs enabling can be a great debate or an eye open experience and might even be welcoming by the user BUT the fact still remains the same when you act in an attacking behavior or result in name calling then the rules apply...expect it!

 I hardly ever check the individual forums anymore.  I look at My Discussions, Active Topics and Posts I have not read.  This one showed up, so I took a gander.  It doesn't matter so much which forum you put it in anymore, as long as you give it a snappy enough heading, you should get enough people dropping by to generate a good discussion.  Well, if the topic is interesting enough.  We're on page 3 already, so it's a "hot topic" despite the fact it's apparently been hidden away in an isolated corner..... Can't really see the problem myself, but there you go.

I know we've been "allowed" to self-moderate in the past and there were times it got very ugly.... so I can sorta see why mods think it's better to step in early, because they've seen it before and they can SEE where it's going....  Still, I think the moderating can be a bit tight sometimes.  That said, it's a darned good thing I'm not a moderator, because, for example, if we HAD such a forum, I'd file this thread under "having a bit of a moan because people disagree with me, while claiming I don't care what they think because I only know them online".  I'm in the UK where we pride ourselves on irony and even I am impressed. 

Liesje

espencer, I believe I know what you are referring to and in some ways I completely agree, but this is also a good example where I kept my mouth shut, simply did not participate in those threads/discussions other than to say what *I* would do with the given information.  So it may look like most people agree and are defending the person, I bet there are a lot that don't but just choose to keep their mouths shut.

And thats great, at least you were not supporting the pity vote for someone that was looking for comfort in their poor decisions

Truley

I personally think it is an over active sense of self importance, arrogance and the thought that they can do no wrong. It's my way or the highway! How hard it must be to live with people like that.

I think that applies more to the people i am talking about. Why those people come here for comfort them in their "easy way out". They can not accept that they are wrong and blame the dog for what it's going to happen  "by the way i never walk my dog", "by the way he is always attached to the tree outside" And if you are not there to support their decision you better dont comment.

With the referenced member before, we suggested her to wait on getting another dog and work with the aggresive one first. Nope she went to get the new puppy. Now she was not only having her hands full with a dog-aggressive dog but also with a puppy. Their training fails and they decide to put the dog to sleep "if my training fails there is nothing else to be done". Um yes it is but their self arrogance does not allow them to accept that their approach was not working. "My dog is better dead before i accept i was wrong", and they come here to look for support on that and help them to convice themselves that "they are not wrong".